The purpose of the Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) is to develop friendly relations among the various Houses, Covens, Orders, organizations, and individual leaders of the vampire community; to encourage cooperation in solving community related problems and in promoting respect for the views, ideas, and opinions of others without seeking to establish a unifying or governing body; and to be a center for harmonizing the actions of groups in attaining these ends.
Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) Public Meeting Transcripts:
Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) Public Meeting – April 27, 2008
Attendees (18):
Anshar Seraphim – House Lost Haven Camille – House Kheperu Deacon Gray – House of the Dreaming (HotD) & Graveyard Press Gabriel – House Lost Haven Gypsy – House Scarlet Moon Kai – Bit Nibiru Khan – The Dark Nations & Independent Representative Lady CG – Smoke & Mirrors Messages Board(s) & Vampire Library (SL) Lady Slinky – Vampire Community Message Board (VCMB) Merticus – Atlanta Vampire Alliance (AVA) & Suscitatio Enterprises, LLC Michelle Belanger – House Kheperu & MichelleBelanger.com NyteMuse – House Rosa Sanguinarius – Sanguinarius.org sarasvati – Echoes of Night & VCMB SphynxCatVP – SphynxCatVP Real Vampires Support Site Sylvere ap Leanan – Real Vampires Community Alliance (RVCA) Wreckmaster – PsychicVampire.org Zilchy – Independent Representative
Discussion Agenda:
I. Meeting Information
Welcome to the first public meeting of Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) for 2008. If you have not attended a VVC meeting before or are reading this for the first time please briefly take note of how this meeting will be conducted. The transcript from tonight’s meeting is being logged and will be made publicly available.
Topics will be presented in the order they appear on the agenda (VVC members may refer to the forum or their e-mail for tonight’s schedule). Please do not skip ahead and please do not suggest discussion of items not on the agenda until at the end of each major discussion topic.
Feel free to speak your mind on any and all topics in a civil manner and offer any supporting information, links, or material as needed. Thank you for coming and now let’s begin!
II. Background & Introduction
VVC was founded January 2006.
The purpose of the Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) is to develop friendly relations among the various Houses, Covens, Orders, organizations, and individual leaders of the vampire community; to encourage cooperation in solving community related problems and in promoting respect for the views, ideas, and opinions of others without seeking to establish a unifying or governing body; and to be a center for harmonizing the actions of groups in attaining these ends. – August 8, 2006
Voices Of The Vampire Community (VVC) does not assert itself as the exclusive organization of leaders or notable persons in the vampi(y)re community nor do we view ourselves or our actions as legislative or authoritarian.
The members of the VVC are representative of multiple groups, Houses, Orders, paths, beliefs, and segments of the vampi(y)re community who meet and are able to put aside personal differences to work together to discuss, suggest, implement, and support projects, ideas, and other intellectual works that help to improve the overall community.
We are available to answer questions through the community feedback form available at the site above.
III. Discussion
As a departure from the specific matters we discuss in business meetings, tonight’s meeting will take a broader and more relevant approach to the vampi(y)re community. Opinions offered from members of the VVC who are unable to attend tonight’s meeting will be posted first after the asking of each question. All present members please allow time for this to occur prior to posting your own response. Just as a reminder, conversation is to be kept civil, statements or claims backed by example where necessary, and in cases of insuperable disagreements; a concession between parties to respectfully agree to disagree.
a. Why do you devote your time and energy to this community – why are you here? In your estimation what are the current areas of growth, shifting, or retraction within the community?
b. If you had to point to one positive or defining characteristic of the vampire community what would it be and why do you feel it’s so important?
c. What do you consider to be the single greatest inhibitor to productive conversation or continuing education for those who are part of the community? What can we do to change this and why have we fallen short in the past?
d. What steps are you personally taking to support the community or aid in the education of others about vampirism?
e. What are current projects or gatherings designed with the community in mind and what can we do to support these initiatives and encourage others to attend?
f. Other topics you’d like to bring up for discussion?
IV. Business Reminders
<Merticus> <<<<<< BEGIN MEETING LOG >>>>>> <Merticus> Voices of the Vampire Community <Merticus> Public Meeting – April 27, 2008 <Merticus> I. Meeting Information <Merticus> Welcome to the first public meeting of Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) for 2008. If you have not attended a VVC meeting before or are reading this for the first time please briefly take note of how this meeting will be conducted. The transcript from tonight’s meeting is being logged and will be made publicly available. <Merticus> Topics will be presented in the order they appear on the agenda (VVC members may refer to the forum or their e-mail for tonight’s schedule). Please do not skip ahead and please do not suggest discussion of items not on the agenda until at the end of each major discussion topic. <Merticus> Feel free to speak your mind on any and all topics in a civil manner and offer any supporting information, links, or material as needed. Thank you for coming and now let’s begin! <Merticus> II. Background & Introduction <Merticus> VVC was founded January 2006. <Merticus> The purpose of the Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) is to develop friendly relations among the various Houses, Covens, Orders, organizations, and individual leaders of the vampire community; to encourage cooperation in solving community related problems and in promoting respect for the views, ideas, and opinions of others without seeking to establish a unifying or governing body; and to be a center for harmonizing the actions of groups in attaining these ends. – August 8, 2006 <Merticus> Voices Of The Vampire Community (VVC) does not assert itself as the exclusive organization of leaders or notable persons in the vampi(y)re community nor do we view ourselves or our actions as legislative or authoritarian. <Merticus> The members of the VVC are representative of multiple groups, Houses, Orders, paths, beliefs, and segments of the vampi(y)re community who meet and are able to put aside personal differences to work together to discuss, suggest, implement, and support projects, ideas, and other intellectual works that help to improve the overall community. <Merticus> For more information please visit our web site at: http://www.veritasvosliberabit.com/vvc.html <Merticus> We are available to answer questions through the community feedback form available at the site above. <Merticus> III. Discussion <Merticus> As a departure from the specific matters we discuss in business meetings, tonight’s meeting will take a broader and more relevant approach to the vampi(y)re community in general. <Merticus> Most of us realize that reaching a consensus of opinion proves either difficult or impossible. Instead of debating the merits of our individual interpretations of vampirism, let’s take a moment to lend our personal views on the community – the thousands of individuals who use some of the resources our members provide via the web, print, or other media. <Merticus> For the benefit of those who may not be familiar with you or your group/projects please briefly describe your relationship with the community (online and offline) prior to answering the following questions: <Merticus> a. Why do you devote your time and energy to this community – why are you here? In your estimation what are the current areas of growth, shifting, or retraction within the community? <LadySlinky> I devote my time and energy to the community in order to be informed and able to help those who seek my support.. <Sphynx-NotHere> Because someone needs to be the voice of reason and common sense. <Sphynx-NotHere> People need to be reminded that not all of their problems are vampiric related - medical checkups ARE necessary, medical investigation of any personal health issues ARE necessary (even if treatment is declined - sometimes you can manage things better yourself if you can just find out what's going on), and so on. <Sphynx-NotHere> Especially for teenagers, not all "new problems" are caused by vampirism - sometimes they need to be reminded that some new things they are experiencing are caused by puberty, growing up, environmental, or - especially these days - prescription medications that have known side effects. A little basic research on any medication or health issue can be found online more easily than even most doctors realize, and should be a first start for anyone wi… <Cammey> A. Because I believe there are some really legitimate people out there who really could use the resource. It can be rough dealing with even the possibility of vampirism, let alone the often impractical reality. I try to make sure there's material out there which is a little more grounded then some of it can be... (as, let's admit it, some of it sucks - in a bad way). <sarasvati> I devote my time to the community because of two reasons: 1) the massive amount of help it gave me early on and continues to do so makes me want to give back. And 2) I think I have an educational background not commonly seen in the community that offers an alternative viewpoint <NyteMuse> I put my energy towards the community to 1, go outside the bounds of my current knowledge/experience so I can better help folks coming for help and 2, because I believe everyone needs a place to belong, and I'd like to play a part in offering a healthy place. <M_Belanger> I've devoted my time and energy to the community largely because my own journey of acceptance and understanding was a difficult one, and I've wanted to make that journey easier for others by providing guideposts. I'm also motivated by a personal belief that I have a karmic debt to the community, and I'm trying to expiate that debt to the best of my ability. <LadyCG> I am a Sanguinarian who went through awakening alone, in a time when there wasn't a community. If I have anything to say about it No other vampire will go through awakening alone, and afraid Like I did, as long I can help. <Sanguinarius> I do to help guide, inform and connect new and not so new vampires with each other, so they aren't ignorant of how they are and how they should/shouldn't be; won't feel quite so alone and estranged <Anshar> I'm Anshar, a representative of House Lost Haven. I devote my time and energy to this community to advance the purposes of self education and collaboration in the vampire community. Self-awareness and objectivity are often lacking in those that are still learning to define themselves and that encourages a lot of mistakes and false impressions. <sarasvati> I am here to both learn and teach, since I believe you can do neither without the other :) <Cammey> As to the part about current growth/change - I've seen a lot more acceptance within the pagan community, which has been absolutely _wonderful_ to see. I no longer always have to explain everything from square one - that is a huge step, IMHO. <zilchy> I'm zilchy, an independent vampire and the creator of "Vampire Q&A" on YouTube. I devote my time and energy to the VC because I feel that it's important to let people know who/what we are and what we're all about. Maybe we can find better ways to cope with symptoms with the added input of others both inside and outside the community. I'm here because of a very strong and omnipresent vampiric tendency, as well as a desire to increase my ow <NyteMuse> I agree with Cammey...I seem to find less issues trying to convince non-vamps that vamps exist, and more just fine-tuning and finessing details. <Merticus> I devote my time to the community because I'd like to further the understanding of vampirism from a research or case-study style approach and to network with others who share similar viewpoints, abilities, etc. I believe there is a lot to be gained through offline/online interaction with one another - I'd like to propagate that as much as possible. <Sylvere> The RVCA (Real-Vampires) was founded as a place for "real" vampires -- as opposed to folklore and fiction enthusiasts and lifestylers -- to find support from like-minded people. We are also open to donors and those who want to gain a better understanding of their friends/loved ones who identify as vampires. We began as a social group and eventually branched out into the realm of support group. We also work to dispel common myth <sarasvati> Growth: More acceptance in the general population. Retraction: More cases of "everything that happens to me is because I am a vampire"-ness... :P <M_Belanger> I've seen the community change recently, particularly in online participation. I believe we're witnessing a current drop-off in "elder" participation in the OVC while many newbies are flooding message boards and lists. The cacophony from all these new (and sometimes immature) voices is unfortunately lending to a feeling of burn-out among older members of the OVC. I'm not sure how that will resolve itself. <LadyCG> the community is becoming better known publicly, thanks to a lot more publicity over the past 5 years or so. <NyteMuse> It seems to me that the problem no longer is "do vampires exist" but the very widespread divisiveness in the community and almost a "vampier-than-thou" vibe <LadyCG> Some of us are getting burned out <Anshar> Areas of growth or retraction.. I would say that as more and more people enter into the vampire community with a better idea of what vampirism is as a consensus, but as to whether or not those ideas are the best ones is a matter left up to discussion. Since the community originated around a lot of misinformation, I think it's easy for the larger whole to adopt a consensus that may not be entirely accurate or personally true. <Sanguinarius> the older vamps NEED to stick around and present strong presences in these places <Sanguinarius> give the newbies guidance, role models and keep them from going crazy or spreading false ideas and notions. <LadySlinky> Many are tired of the abuse from being a strong presence <NyteMuse> And also lack of retention...new folks drowning out the voices of experience on the boards so that the "old farts", or at least the wiser voices, are throwing up hands in frustration. <M_Belanger> I've also seen a huge spike in media interest in the community. No less than three television series are planning fall episodes that revolve around real vampires. I'm glad that we've gotten more positive exposure, but I'm not sure everyone in the community is comfortable with the level of interest -- nor do they always feel the interest is genuinely motivated by a desire to understand us as people, and not sideshows. <Sylvere> I joined the VVC as a means to improve communication between the RVCA and other groups. The RVCA was always the "anti-house" and our founder had a very antagonistic attitude toward any and all organizations. As time passed, I wanted to do more outreach and networking. So, here I am. <LadyCG> We try Sangi.. we stay around a lot longer than older vamps used to... I remember when it was hard to find a vampire over 40 and now we have community members in their 60s. But we do get tired and we do get burned out. <Anshar> That makes the ability to properly communicate and share/contrast ideas a must for our advancement as a whole. The collaboration of ideas and critical thinking will be able to bring us all closer to the truth each of us seeks. <Sanguinarius> that's why I blow off interviews * Anshar nods <Merticus> I think the way that we are communicating with each other is changing to a degree - more a shift to smaller or more focused groups or communities and stronger offline focus as those who were younger when they started in the community have grown older. <Sphynx-NotHere> I also see an increased emphasis on political structures and "tenure" within the community, and seemingly less on open, free and civil discussion - as evidenced by people new and old butting heads frequently on many forums <M_Belanger> I understand that the newcomers to the community just want to learn, but it's hard to answer the exact same question for the 50th or the 100th time when it's been asked repeatedly in cycles on every message board you've ever been on <Sphynx-NotHere> (and yea, burnout.... definitely burnt. out.) <LadySlinky> and there are countless articles answering their questions <zilchy> MB, yeah - that's part of why I started making the videos <LadySlinky> they just don't want to bother to read them <M_Belanger> RTFM ... or at least, RTF FAQ <zilchy> because lots of people see articles and think TL:DR (Too long, didn't read) <M_Belanger> heh ... damn the YouTube generation. <Anshar> It's about the process of self entitlement and the path of least resistance when it comes to personal acknowledgement. <Sphynx-NotHere> is THAT was TLDR is! <M_Belanger> Make me feel old.... <zilchy> sphynx, yah <LadySlinky> me too <Anshar> I doubt there's much we can do in that arena. That an inherent personality trait with many people, and has little or nothing to do with vampirism specifically. <LadyCG> You are not allowed to feel old, Michelle, I'm the one who just turned 45, lol <AncientKhan> Ok. I'm involved because I hope that were someone to walk in the shoes I wore, something I could share might make their lives a bit better and help them become more introspective as to the fact that their vampyrism isn't the only thing that makes them who they are. I think our best bet to grow together is in personal interaction, and that maybe, if we can see further than ourselves, we might be able to rally around the ties that bind us. <M_Belanger> You got ten years on me, lady. But I still feel old. <Deacon_Gray> people on line want communication. If they wanted to just learn they would buy the books and read the articles. They are mostly around for social interaction. * Anshar agrees <Cammey> books, I know like... maybe 3 on the topic <Deacon_Gray> I think that is the first thing the OVC needs to realize <Cammey> all of which are at least marginally controversial <Anshar> People are more interested typically in seeking out others who can "give" them an opinion instead of creating their own. <M_Belanger> As much as the general aura of impatience annoys me, I also realize that not everyone learns by reading. <AncientKhan> Agree with Anshar... <M_Belanger> Some are more visual, some are more hands-on -- so they do need different methods of outreach. But it can be hard accommodating everyone's needs <Anshar> Promoting objectivity and balance would probably be a good priority. <LadyCG> That’s a part of the idea behind my Library on SL (Second Life). <Sylvere> Honestly, as one of the "auld pharts" who now has a family and other obligations, I can't spoon feed the newbs. <Cammey> Anshar ~ *grins* define objectivity and balance in this context <Anshar> Most people are incapable of even DISCUSSING their beliefs rationally let alone being objective about them. <LadySlinky> I agree Sylvere <Merticus> I like the idea that the community is evolving as a result of the mixed media we've branched into over the last few years. <Anshar> Objectivity: the concept that what you hold true may be based on information or bias, and the knowledge of that possibility <Sylvere> I'm happy to create ethical documents, FAQs, or whatever for them to read and I think we SHOULD create those documents. <Sanguinarius> yes yes <Cammey> Anshar ~ so the acknowledgement of bias is enough to consider objective? <Sylvere> But those are just a starting point so that everyone is on the same page and speaking the same language. <LadySlinky> We have those documents <LadySlinky> lots and lots of those documents <M_Belanger> The irony with my position is, on one hand, I'm able to reach far more people with my writing and other work. But it all takes up so much time that I've had to sacrifice any kind of online presence or direct teaching. <Sylvere> It's then much easier to answer questions. <Cammey> Anshar ~ I'm not sure I agree, but I agree it's a good step. <LadySlinky> which may be part of the issue <Anshar> Balance: The capacity to weigh out different possibilities, and have access to those possibilities presented in a way that shows the individual merits of each belief. <Sylvere> Slinky: That's the problem. * Sanguinarius hopes her terminology and lingo is a step towards getting people speaking the same language on the same page <NyteMuse> Sylvere, there are tons of those documents already...the problem is I really see a major "us vs. them" attitude in a lot of groups. If another group created it, it's obviously not usable <Sylvere> There is not a single document that represents a majority opinion. <M_Belanger> Anshar, Cammey: how do you teach people to think for themselves? <LadyCG> Sangi can I have that document for the Library? <Sanguinarius> yeah <Anshar> Cammey: if you realize that you have bias then you will be MORE objective. Objectivity isn't a binary on/off kind of thing. <LadySlinky> None of the documents really is based in anything more then speculation and observance though. <Cammey> M ~ in 2500 words or less? You don't. You provide them a foundation to start from and pray they go from there... You can provide possible paths, but giving them the answer quite literally defeats the purpose. <Sylvere> NM: see above <M_Belanger> All of our interpretations of our vampirism needs must be speculative <LadySlinky> Do you really think there is a majority opinion? * zilchy agree w/ Cammey <NyteMuse> Does there _need_ to be a majority opinion? <M_Belanger> We have only our personal experiences to measure by and no hard data such as laboratory research, really <Anshar> Michelle: By showing them that even the people who know the most understand that they are capable of making mistakes and changing their introspective reality through trial, error, and revision. <Sanguinarius> majority, or at least the biggest percentage of opinion :> <Cammey> M ~ (you know this, but let me say it for others who don't know me) my view is: create a solid non-harmful foundation and a few road-maps for people who give a care to start with. <zilchy> NM, not really. It would be nice to have a majority opinion, but there doesn't NEED to be one. <Sylvere> Slinky: See my post on the forum re: creating a doc that represents a majority <Merticus> I don't believe there does at this juncture... we're still coming into our own in many respects. <Deacon_Gray> typically we don't listen to the "Elders" because they tend to act a little too elitist... <Deacon_Gray> all in their own houses, or groups, and hard to interact with for most <M_Belanger> Our majority opinion is that vampirism exists, and some of us can be defined as vampires. Beyond that, things begin to diverge wildly. <Anshar> If role models in the community are capable of showing that they are human and have gotten where they are through their own personal journey of questions and revisions, that encourages others to do the same. <Cammey> IF they're going to parrot something, give them something semi-reasonable to parrot <Cammey> and then tell them that they should go from there, and hope <Cammey> that's all <M_Belanger> The first rule of Bite Club.... <LadySlinky> even being human is in question in the community <zilchy> Anshar, agree. <NyteMuse> Zilchy, I think any "push" to create a "majority opinion" on anything is going to set a lot of folks on edge if they deviate or are just plain Gen-Xer recalcitrant <Sylvere> Deacon: And yet we KEEP setting up houses/orders/yadda yadda that have that hierarchal structure <Sphynx-NotHere> LOL @ Michelle <zilchy> NM, absolutely - which is why any publicly available statement of "majority opinion" needs to include EVERY opinion we can find. <M_Belanger> Anarchy in a group setting isn't workable. Someone needs to be "in charge" in some capacity, even if it's only to moderate discussions <Sanguinarius> do people come in, gravitate toward the hierarchical structure but then eventually grow out of that and move on? <LadySlinky> then it isn't a majority opinion <NyteMuse> Sangi, makes sense to me <Merticus> Though not all houses, groups, et. al. are created or function the same either. Some are out of convenience of communication and provide the ability for others to work together to accomplish something faster and sometimes more efficiently than without some degree of structure. <Sphynx-NotHere> Some people never had the hierarchal mindset to start with :P <Deacon_Gray> it is not that...the houses can have all the organization they want <Deacon_Gray> hell have more...just need to open it up more in my view <Sylvere> We can represent the opinion that a majority of people have while still directing them to other opinions for further study. <Anshar> Majority isn't a necessity for a personal world view. Have any of you ever gone to ReligiousTolerance.org? <M_Belanger> Just from what I know of human psychology, some people function better within a structure. Some function better outside of it. And some fall on a continuum in between. <Sylvere> It doesn't have to be an "us vs them" attitude. <Sanguinarius> If my teen self came into the community today, it'd get flamed out probably, for acting like a little poser/wannabe/etc. <LadyCG> I have Anshar <zilchy> sangi - same story <NyteMuse> Anshar, yes <Sanguinarius> (which is one major reason why I put up my site, to help newbie vamps get past that stage) <Deacon_Gray> indeed...but we could offer a structure with out admitting them to a house <M_Belanger> My teen self was a predatory cult-leader in training. I can relate. Though I suspect some folks would argue the "cult leader" status never really went away. <Deacon_Gray> a path of learning so to speak <Anshar> ReligiousTolerance.org is a website that remains objective about EVERY belief. It simply lists the beliefs and central ideas of each belief system, and why/what people who endorse that belief actually believe. <Sanguinarius> hehe, "cult" doesn't necessarily have to be "bad" <Anshar> It makes no statement of right or wrong, it's purpose is simply there to inform. <Sanguinarius> just don't make anyone drink coolaid * Sanguinarius ducks and runs <NyteMuse> Anshar, I believe the problem with that is what we ran into on the forums, with the discussions about "classicals" <M_Belanger> I *think* that's one of the sites Dr. J. Gordon Melton is or was involved with. <Merticus> Well another good offshoot question... as a teen 10 years ago vrs, a teen coming into the community today - would you say it's easier to find information or easier to interact effectively with others - or build a respectable reputation (not to say elder or leader) but in general? <Anshar> By understanding the merits of different individual opinions, it encourages others to make their OWN decisions <Deacon_Gray> people like benchmarks in learning <Deacon_Gray> degrees <Deacon_Gray> a sense of accomplishment <Deacon_Gray> but many also like their freedom <Sanguinarius> freedom is good <LadySlinky> There was nothing when I was a teen so I would definitely say it is better today <Gabrielx> hey guys <LadyCG> I don’t know that you can benchmark self discovery, Deacon <M_Belanger> As a teen coming in today, I think it is easier to find information, but that also I think has had the negative side effect of making it easier to become overwhelmed with information. Rather than having to fight for bits of insight, a newcomer drowns easily in conflicting opinions that they have no ability to navigate. <zilchy> CG, he's talking about something like belt levels in Karate or something. <sarasvati> I think it a lot easier now vs. 10 years ago to find information... its the vast amount of information available. A newbies basic tenets will be grounded on what information they find first. <Sylvere> Anshar: the problem with that is a rank n00b will have no concept of what is a balanced view and what is crap like WingedWolf or Catherene Nightpoe <Anshar> Sylvere: but... who are you to say that WingedWolf is a kook? <Anshar> I happen to agree, but that's my OPINION. <Sanguinarius> oh god *groans* <M_Belanger> Is Catherine still around? Thought she had kicked the proverbial bucket? <Sanguinarius> she died but her site lives on <Sylvere> How do you create a balance between them and everyone else without giving them a foundation? <Anshar> if we're going to encourage people to form their own opinions, injecting your own bias isn't going to help anything. <M_Belanger> And that whole business about Classics and Nightsiders and such? Oi vey <Sylvere> Anshar: WWP's crap was debunked years ago on TNO by electrical engineers. <LadyCG> Catherene died in 2005 <Cammey> Ok, but let's take another tack on this - so you just threw out most of what you 'knew' by accepting vampirism/magic <sarasvati> No, you have to give them what you have for your base, and the reasons you have for that, and they have to choose for themselves which direction to go... <LadySlinky> Why include crap to preserve crap <Cammey> how the hell are you supposed to jump paradigms like that and sort out what makes sense from what does <Cammey> no <Cammey> when NOTHING makes 'sense' <M_Belanger> No, it doesn't help, but maintaining the intellectual objectivity when writing up the beliefs of a group that you personally disagree with can be difficult. <Anshar> if someone's ideas are kooky, then an objective survey will let a person who's interested in knowing more have the information to make their own assertions about who is "kooky" <Sanguinarius> optimize your sites for search engines.. get ranked higher than sites that pump crap down people's throats <M_Belanger> Also, for some of the kookier beliefs, if you manage not to seem a little incredulous, some folks might take your write up as an endorsement. * NyteMuse agrees with Michelle <sarasvati> Mentally, I compare it to different Christian sects...what make one person choose Catholic over Protestant? over Episcopal? heck, over Mormon or Pagan? <M_Belanger> Mormon women have those funny hairdos. I would just look ridiculous. ;) <Anshar> Sylvere: What I'm saying is that instead of dismissing the beliefs of others, post them up. Once they see WingedWolf's theory of curing vampirism by imprisoning an energy parasite in tupperware, copper foil, and bucking magnets... they'll have all the info they need to decide for themselves who is "kooky" :D <Sanguinarius> lol <sarasvati> It goes back to that first base information and the basic tenets of a persons belief in what vampirism is or is not TO them <LadySlinky> lol <Deacon_Gray> not all of them <NyteMuse> saras, I see your point, but...well, it's kind of different, since I don't believe most vamps "choose" their origin story <Deacon_Gray> that is the reformed church <AncientKhan> I agree with Anshar again <AncientKhan> You can't make crazy people be "not crazy". <Anshar> Exactly. <Sanguinarius> well, what IS kooky? Some guy discovered a cure for cancer using radio waves, pie pans and hot dogs <Gabrielx> I think one of the most important parts is our diversity and willingness to work with one another honestly <sarasvati> NyteMuse: Most Christians would say the same, though. They didn't choose their faith, it is what they believe... for vampires, that can be anything from biology to demonic possession. <AncientKhan> An audience of believers in the company of our peers will show their merit for themselves. <Sanguinarius> and that's true <M_Belanger> Well, and there's this point at which one must accept that we cannot protect everyone from falling prey to beliefs that we personally find objectionable. <Sylvere> Thin skins + unwillingness to create any sort of *meaningful* structure (as opposed to the V:tM based House/Clan structure) because of a fear of somehow infringing on a person's right to think for him/herself. <Deacon_Gray> people could run something like a course on historical theology <Sanguinarius> google Kanzius machine <NyteMuse> saras: *raised eyebrow* Really? I'd never heard that, but I guess I can kind of see that take... <M_Belanger> The moment we try to steer people away from certain beliefs for their own good is the moment that we're no better than our well-meaning Xtian relatives... <Deacon_Gray> don't try <AncientKhan> Well said, Michelle <Deacon_Gray> just set up a means to gain insight into many <M_Belanger> ty <Sanguinarius> I think we can't stress too much people being careful when bloodletting, and not to just go out and go it casually. <Sanguinarius> esp. newbies and younger vamps <Anshar> Anyhow, my point is that by trying to promote "rational" views in the community, you usually encourage the crazies to come out. <Cammey> *agrees with Sangi* I think that's one of the few _hard_ things this topic hits <M_Belanger> Would it be helpful to have a list of all of the possible beliefs/interpretations/permutations that vampirism has taken within the community -- absolutely <Cammey> M - not possible <M_Belanger> Could we accomplish something like this in an unbiased way? Possibly. <Sylvere> Anshar: You still have to provide some basis for critical analysis in order to decide what's "kooky" and what isn't. <AncientKhan> We can't post them all, but ours here would be a good start... <Anshar> If you promote a fair and balanced view that objectively looks at the standpoint of each belief system, then a person can have a consolidated idea of what's out there and decide what's kooky or right on for themselves. <LadySlinky> As long as it is presented as all the views no matter how crazy and not as some majority <sarasvati> I think on Sangi's board there has been an attempt to list many of the current theories, M_Belanger <Deacon_Gray> well CG and Sangi I believe have a library concept is a good start <sarasvati> But I don't think that list went into details...just a list <M_Belanger> A list is a start. <Anshar> Sylvere: trying to tell people HOW to be critically analytical takes you back to square one: telling them how to form their belief system. It's better in my opinion to put up the data and let them develop their own thought process. <AncientKhan> And may I suggest that instead of listing everyone's, we only speak for ourselves... <Merticus> Yes, anything set down in writing in one comprehensive site or place is better than crawling 50 sites for the material. <LadySlinky> Many have gotten the idea that Sangi supports all the articles on the list. <sarasvati> A more objective list is in my to-list for my site...but that list just keeps getting pushed back *sigh* <M_Belanger> The history project is part of that when I suggested it to Mert. But that relied on hearing things (when possible) from the horse's mouth, so to speak <NyteMuse> Hm...wonder if we could just post the list and then Bonewits' guide to evaluating cults and call it a day *chuckle* <Anshar> The benefit of that is that if in their personal journey they realize that they've been led astray, they'll be able to self-evaluate and re-approach. <M_Belanger> Khan -- but where does that leave the belief systems that have come and gone but still have some impact? Someone should chronicle them. <Merticus> Yes, on the project I have compiled information on some 50+ houses, trying to get it all in table form or an sql database atm. <AncientKhan> M, I think we can't really speak for others if we aren't in their heads. * Anshar agrees with Khan * Sanguinarius wonders how effective Bonewits's scale is for people who are already brainwashed IN a cult <LadyCG> I'm pretty sure no one WANTS to be in MY head. lol <Sylvere> Anshar: I disagree. Universities teach people how to be critically analytical in various subjects all the time without telling them what to believe. <AncientKhan> I don't say that they don't count, but I can't make a statement for someone else's belief system. <Sanguinarius> can they see things objectively enough to evaluate their organization? <NyteMuse> What about making the list and publicly posting it, giving the addendum that the list is based on our experiences and not complete and anyone who has anything to add can contact us? <Cammey> Sangi - probably not, but I've seen it used before someone considers joining a group - that's probably the more useful form <Anshar> Sylvere: but students of science CHOOSE to be there and have a desire to be objective. * Sanguinarius agrees with Sylvere <M_Belanger> Anshar -- I've found that two of the most controversial and cult-like groups in the Vampire Community have proven very good at producing discerning and analytical minds ... once they got sucked in and went through the process of getting back out. <Cammey> Sylvere - I think that is a very optimistic view of universities * NyteMuse agrees w/ Sylvere <Sylvere> Mert: re: 1 site vs 50 - exactly <Sanguinarius> that's good <Sanguinarius> (re: M_Belanger) <Anshar> Michelle: Exactly. Which is why encouraging people to use their own process is helpful. It teaches them to be analytical of their OWN volition. <Anshar> By realizing that if they're aren't objective they'll end up where they were before. <M_Belanger> Sometimes falling on your face teaches you something that being *told* about falling never could. <Anshar> Bingo. <NyteMuse> *nods* <Sanguinarius> *nod* <Sylvere> Anshar: So you think the newbs who come to the VC looking for answers don't *choose* to be there? <Deacon_Gray> I think they just have a good education system...there is no reason we cannot as well <Sylvere> Cammy: Since I'm attending university, I think it's a valid view. <Anshar> Sylvere: Perhaps I'm misunderstanding. Are you opposed to having an amalgam of beliefs listed in an objective way for the purpose of research and personal evolution? <Deacon_Gray> They have a set task list: exploration or education goal for their members that helps them to have directed exploration <Cammey> Sylvere - I went through grad school <Cammey> there is a LOT of bias at a university level, just often very educated and well-spoken bias <M_Belanger> So on that line, I think we should be a little less worried about trying to save people from themselves. Leave that to the legislators in the U.S. They seem to try it with dumb-ocracy laws all the time. <Deacon_Gray> and cuts down on the repetitive conversations...of course they could all gather in rooms and chat about what they think with others in the same task list kinda thing <Anshar> Cammey: VERY true. <Sylvere> Anshar: No, I'm not. What I would like to see is something like this...pls bear with--- <Sanguinarius> if we leave it to them, they'll legislate laws that marginalize us or what we do. * Anshar nods to Sylvere <Anshar> Please, go on. I'm listening. I think we may have misunderstood one another. <Deacon_Gray> well let me attempt to give an example...I went looking for info on Warrior types place and duties inside a ritual and how to complete those tasks <M_Belanger> Sangi -- I think it's entirely possible for future laws or at least legal actions to interfere with our "lifestyles" <Sanguinarius> we gotta devote at least a little energy to saving people from themselves <M_Belanger> Some of the rumblings toward the kink community suggest things might go that way... * Sanguinarius agrees <Deacon_Gray> I think two houses had some info...most had nothing but a little mention of that they do have a task <Deacon_Gray> so it is not just newbes who cannot navigate our community <Cammey> "lead a horse to water" - personally, I'm for digging extra watering holes and putting up signs <Cammey> but I think that's all we can do <sarasvati> Technically, there are already laws that make what we do illegal... but they are not heavily enforced <LadyCG> Sangi.. that could be circumvented were the community to develop the kind of political clout the pagan community now enjoys * Sanguinarius agrees <Sylvere> Let's say you have 5 docs that say vampires are defined by a need to feed to maintain good health. 2 say that a vampire is someone who does energy work or blood magic for spiritual purposes. 1 says a vampire craves blood/energy but doesn't experience any ill effects from not feeding, 1 says there's an astral symbiont. <Sylvere> The 5 docs are the simple majority. <Anshar> Sangi: that would be about as effective as teaching abstinence... though I'm all for teaching people that if they ARE going to do something, "here's a way to do it safely without breaking the law" <zilchy> ash hits the nail on the head here <NyteMuse> IMO, if we really want to promote diversity w/i the community, a good approach would be to list all the possible theories/causes/explanations and include a statement/article about evaluation/discernment/critical thinking/threat assessment without hinting that any one particular group is wrong. Then we've done the responsible thing and left it to other people to think for themselves without telling them they had to. <Deacon_Gray> you would take the best representation and let people read the three <M_Belanger> Funny thing -- I've used that same argument, Anshar, to defend why blood drinking practices should be posted online to ppl outside the community. <Sylvere> However, within a doc describing that majority view, there can be embedded links, footnotes, or whatever that direct those who want further info to a page that discusses those views in greater depth. * NyteMuse agrees with Cammey <AncientKhan> With all due respect, Sylvere, if we just go with the majority, there is no reason for those not in the majority to participate, which is part of the drama we face now. <Deacon_Gray> sounds good sylvere <Anshar> Sylvere: but does that make them right? or does it mean that it's possible that aspects of each may be true? or even... does it mean that research on the other points should be discouraged? <Gabrielx> Cammey: If we tried to do anything more I think that there's a possibility new comers would shun even the thought of reading things over just due to the mass majority of the houses signing off on it. They'd actively seek somewhere more non independent. A lot of them may not want free thought :P <Sylvere> All views are represented with the majority view as the basis for comparison in order for the person to evaluate the rest. <LadyCG> I believe it would be possible for the Vampire Community acquire that kind of political clout (such as the Pagan community now enjoys) but it would require us to set aside our personal bias's and commit to a community that includes Everyone who calls him or herself "Vampire" * Sanguinarius nods <LadyCG> for whatever reason they choose to identify with the community <Anshar> Sylvere: for example, by looking at WingedWolf's arguments I was able to get enough interest to study the piscavat, a spiritual parasite in the Hindi belief system. <Anshar> Does that make WingedWolf right? No. But, by making information available it encourages others to think for themselves, which was Michelle's question at the beginning of all this. <M_Belanger> I would love us to get there, CG, but some of the forward momentum the Pagans enjoyed involved rallying under the banner of religious freedom. <Sanguinarius> I think if we de-emphasize who is and who isn't "a vampire" (within reason), and just focus on vampiric info and problems...that would go far. * NyteMuse agrees with Sangi <LadyCG> and is our freedom to be who we are any less critical? <Deacon_Gray> of course the task would be...HUGE <Anshar> Studying that spirit phenomenon in their culture allowed me to learn more about what those who believe in them believe them to be and how that might tie into a potential view of Vampirism. <NyteMuse> The terminology and excessive reinventing of the wheel takes up so much time and energy <LadySlinky> It seems to me the more we head towards the pagan community ideal the further we get away for objective research. <AncientKhan> Do we agree on anything? <M_Belanger> Vamps get touchy when the issue of religion comes up, especially in the context of their vampirism. Even though religious studies scholars would tend to define our belief that we are vampires as a belief, and therefore lump us in with New Religious Movements. <Sanguinarius> and we can devote less time and energy arguing about who/what is/isn't a "vampire" <Cammey> Slinky - I'm not sure, IMHO, there's more objective-research pagan side then vamp side, though mostly because of the sheer numbers of participants <sarasvati> Khan: We all agree there are vampires :) <Cammey> it's one of the reasons I love Mert so much, for introducing that to the community in a big way <LadyCG> We don't want to BE the Pagan community.. we want to emulate the path they took to achieve the community they have now. <Sylvere> Anshar: those not in the majority are still represented and you could still do the same research <LadySlinky> I am not saying the pagans do not have research <AncientKhan> Then maybe that's where we start, and let the rest work itself out with dealing with that one agreeable factor... <Sylvere> There is no win/lose situation here. <M_Belanger> Shouldn't we look more to the gay community? <Sanguinarius> somewhat <Anshar> Sylvere: ah, darn, I misunderstood again. I thought you had said that we would focus on the majority views. <Merticus> How does one arrive at something that can be labeled as a "majority view" - what are the standards and by what measure would they be set? I would think on some level such would be counterproductive than just presenting the various opinions on their face value for other's to decide or make an informed decision. Yes, we don't need to be in the business of exclusionary practices, etc. <Anshar> my mistake and apologies. <M_Belanger> They have to struggle with the same issues -- outsiders thinking it's a choice or even a willful rebellion, the internal belief that the majority of us are born this way ... <LadyCG> Its true we don't have a lot of standards or majority views.. and yet.. here we all are. <Deacon_Gray> yes... <LadyCG> something brings us together <Sanguinarius> show the majority view but make it clear that it isn't necessarily better view than some view in the minority <Sanguinarius> maybe? <Deacon_Gray> but we do not have to fight for what they did <Anshar> Sylvere: the "majority view" is that vampirism is bullshit. Should we post that there as well? <LadySlinky> I think both communities have merit to learn from. <Sylvere> Anshar: we use the simple majority as a basis and still direct those who want info on the minority to places to find that info. However, those looking for a basic and very general understanding don't have to dig through 50 websites and books to find it. <Deacon_Gray> you are not denied medical visitation rights because your spouse is a vamp <Sanguinarius> majority vampire community view <M_Belanger> It's funny. This happened at Twilight II. <M_Belanger> We were all in a room together, and when we tried to use words to define our similarities and differences, all we could do was argue. * Anshar nods to Sylvere <Anshar> makes sense. <Gabrielx> CG: I think the fact that we care brings us all here <Deacon_Gray> I mean what is our goal of being public? <Deacon_Gray> so we are not made fun of? <Merticus> Let's use that as a segway into the next question.. <Merticus> b. If you had to point to one positive or defining characteristic of the vampire community what would it be and why do you feel it’s so important? * Anshar nods to Mert <AncientKhan> <M. This seems to repeat itself like bad history.. <M_Belanger> And yet, when we weren't trying to find words to define ourselves, we could all inherently recognize our similarities, the ties that bound us together. <Sphynx-NotHere> As a whole there is more awareness of possible medical issues contributing to a person's health and well-being. This is important because EVERYONE must take care of their health, and everyone must be aware of how anything they do, or anything they're eating/drinking/taking on a daily basis can potentially impact their health. <LadySlinky> The vampire community as a whole is so vast that there really is no single positive defining characteristic. <LadyCG> My point though Gabe is that we don’t all agree on a lot of things, and yet here we are from all over the community with all our different beliefs, and we all recognize each other AS community. <Cammey> B. Diversity. <Cammey> (<- uses cheap route) <Gabrielx> I think one of the most important parts is our diversity and willingness to work with one another (repeat from earlier) <sarasvati> Support... whether it be a small website or a vast house, support is always available in some form <zilchy> The positive defining characteristic in the vampire community is that we're all together, for whatever reason, and most of us like to take a critical view of our condition in order to validate it for ourselves and others. <Gabrielx> CG: agree'd <Deacon_Gray> I like what I am <M_Belanger> It's simple, really. We're vampires. We believe that vampirism is something that exists, and that some people can be vampiric. * NyteMuse agrees w/ Michelle <Deacon_Gray> ok so we come out with that <Deacon_Gray> and the rest of the society says....SO what? <Anshar> I'd say the most positive and defining characteristic of the vampire community is diversity. That diversity may cause us issues, but it's also our greatest strength. Some of us are doctors, lawyers, respected members of the community, housewives, and more. Our strength is that we realize that we have a common condition, even if we have difficulty acknowledging exactly what that condition is. <LadyCG> Yes. I agree <M_Belanger> The second part of that statement should always be that within the community there are many different expressions of vampirism as well as many different interpretations as to what it really is and what causes it. <Merticus> Simplicity is often the best route in this community. <LadyCG> Michelle that’s the simplest form of what brings us together, period <M_Belanger> Generally, when I'm on the radio or tv, they're like, Hrm, that's neat. <Deacon_Gray> exactly <NyteMuse> The other positive characteristic I seem to see a lot of in the VC is that vampires are encouraged to really seek further growth and development...it's not just "I'm a vampire!" and then sit on your laurels. Sure, people may come to the wrong or kooky conclusions, but there is a big drive to understand <Deacon_Gray> thats neat.... <Deacon_Gray> and than what <AncientKhan> I think another issue that is hurting us is that we care too much what mainstream society thinks of us. <Deacon_Gray> we are vampries and... <Cammey> Nyte - I have to agree with that <Deacon_Gray> and stop teasing us? <Cammey> Khan - I disagree <Anshar> Khan: at the rate we're going, there's a possibility that we may join a section of the mainstream at any moment. <AncientKhan> How so, Cammey? <M_Belanger> They really only worry about us when or if they feel that our way of doing things might infringe on their lives -- like Pagans worried about predatory vampires. <M_Belanger> Everything else, it's just idle curiosity about us, really. <AncientKhan> Isn't that what causes all these documentaries? <Anshar> Khan: that won't change some people's opinions of us, but it is a reality. <Cammey> Khan - because I think it's important. Personally, as someone who lives pretty solidly in mainstream society, I'd rather not have parts of myself which could be seriously problematic where they to come into the light of day <Deacon_Gray> sensationalism causes the docus <NyteMuse> I see more concern from Pagans than the rest of mainstream * Anshar nods to NyteMuse <Deacon_Gray> the freak show curiosity <AncientKhan> I understand that they have an opinion, but I think we lose a little trying to make them understand us if they don't want to. <Gabrielx> or when someone run's around killing a lot of people and claims their a vampire <Cammey> Nyte - that's because most mainstream don't take it seriously. Many pagans do. <NyteMuse> Agreed <M_Belanger> Some of it is definitely that, Deacon. * Sylvere agrees with Deacon <LadySlinky> I don't see how we can make them understand us when we do not understand our own community <Cammey> Khan - probably, but we lose a lot if say, it starts to become a serious source of discrimination <M_Belanger> Khan -- you can never make anyone understand something they don't want to. <AncientKhan> Agreed. <Deacon_Gray> I don't see why we try to make them understand <Anshar> Khan: Mormons deal with the same thing, yet, they are also "mainstream" in that they are a recognized religion. Some people think they're kooky or odd, but yet they ARE mainstream. <NyteMuse> You can never _make_ someone understand, PERIOD. It's their choice/internal thought process <Sanguinarius> documentaries? <M_Belanger> Sangi -- right now, three episodes of three different television series are in the works. <LadySlinky> Mormons know without a doubt who they are <AncientKhan> So maybe we focus on understanding our people first, and let the mainstream catch up when they're ready. <Sanguinarius> oh my <Sanguinarius> can you send me any info on them? <M_Belanger> Monster Quest is one, Paranormal State is another, and I don't know the name of the other series, as it's apparently new <Anshar> Slinky: I doubt that's true any more than Catholics know who/what they are as a group. <Deacon_Gray> and we will all flock to it and proclaim how much we loved so and so and hated so and so <Cammey> and here's where I think we get back to the pagan analogy - the 'understanding' you get is likely to be grossly oversimplified, but at least it's not overtly _negative_ <Sylvere> Sangi: One of them is "Secret Lives of Women" <Cammey> imho, that's really the goal <M_Belanger> Oh yeah - that one, too <LadySlinky> Anshar that’s still a hell of a lot better then us <Deacon_Gray> I like projects inside the community for the community <Anshar> I'm not saying we're there yet, I'm saying we're dawning on that time. <Anshar> If we were already there, this group would serve less of a purpose. <M_Belanger> I get to play with a thermographic camera. That's all I care at the moment. <Deacon_Gray> that are geared to more than self promotion of the newest community celeb <Anshar> That's exactly what GIVES us purpose. <AncientKhan> I hate to have to leave at this juncture, but I need to get my daughter ready for bed. I'll try and catch back up if you are on when I get back. <Sanguinarius> we need to make a documentary within the community, that deals with the community <Sanguinarius> so far, nobody has done that. I know there are filmmakers in our ranks <Deacon_Gray> which community? <Deacon_Gray> just the New York crowd? <Anshar> Sangi: it would be no different than other documentaries in that it would imply a bias and there would be views we would both be lambasted and lauded for. <Anshar> Michelle knows about THAT phenomenon. <Sanguinarius> the vampire community (not the vampyre lifestyle scene) <Deacon_Gray> the TOS crowd? The Japanese satanists.. <Sanguinarius> not satanists <Deacon_Gray> we pick and choose which one we want to accept... <M_Belanger> Anshar -- I've accepted that for every person who actually likes what I say on tv, there will be three louder people who find fault with it. But I still think I'm accomplishing something useful for the moment, so I keep doing it. <Sanguinarius> some degree of ....damn, what is the term.....distinction has to be made <Anshar> The thing to do is not one documentary where we try to encompass everything, but several that encompass different topics, just like what's already out there. <Sylvere> Anshar: at least we wouldn't be lumped in with mass murderers and Satanists <Sanguinarius> otherwise, it'll end up documentary about satanists, ufo abductees and otherkin <LadySlinky> I think your interviews have improved greatly over the years. <Anshar> Sylvere: I agree with you, I'm talking about the approach if it were to be done. <Deacon_Gray> you know what worked well <Deacon_Gray> Michelles open houses <Sylvere> <--- *is* Otherkin so I don't see an issue with that <Anshar> In everything I've seen Michelle do, for example, she always tries to weigh the different systems that exist and state that many people have different beliefs. When she specifies a belief, such as her own, she calls it out by name. It's the people who actually MAKE the documentary who make the associations, and it's also necessary to realize that drama sells. <zilchy> <-- is a Satanist, so bite me... well... you know... <Anshar> And then, address the individuals who WATCH the documentary and carry their own bias. <Anshar> I'm just saying that more views is better. <Sanguinarius> maybe make one showing how diverse we all ARE <Anshar> exactly and perhaps another about how the different belief systems of vampires vary <Anshar> and that some have no belief system at all. <Anshar> maybe an inquisitive piece <Cammey> I think, while showing more views, in a broader sense, is a good thing * Sanguinarius agrees <Anshar> that asks questions instead of making statements <Cammey> it'll also confuse the hell out of your average watcher <Cammey> you need to define your audience <Cammey> is it other people in the community, newbies to the community, or outsiders? <Sanguinarius> good point <Cammey> personally, I'd love to see something put together going into the nuances of everyone's belief systems. <Merticus> Anyone else wish to add to the "good aspects of the community"? <Cammey> but I'm not sure that's the best idea for pr, you kinda need a simple sound-bite message <Deacon_Gray> I dunno seems to me like everyone is looking for a "Cause" Some kids go to school to get an education, some to party and play, and some to show their daddies that they have beliefs...deep ones damn it! And everyone needs to know...""were here, we drink blood or energy in a safe protected manner...Get used to it!" <Sylvere> Good aspects: less secretiveness <LadyCG> I'd like to add, Mert <Merticus> The very fact that we are communicating with one another while sharing diverse viewpoints and coming together in offline gatherings centered around academic discussion I think is a very positive development within the community. <Anshar> Merticus: agreed <LadyCG> I'd like to add that I have grandkids and just like I have kids who are grown vampires. I think its positive that the community is becoming better known.. some day they have a chance of being mainstream enough to not have to ever be labeled freaks for being vamps..and isn’t that the goal? <Cammey> *agrees with mert* <Sanguinarius> that should be a major goal <Cammey> *agrees with CG* <Gabrielx> how about the younger kids in the community that are being swept up by outside groups to join their houses since we have age restrictions? any thoughts on that? <LadyCG> so..even though we stumble and fumble around.. we ARE getting there.. we just have to keep on keeping on <LadySlinky> michelle’s open houses <Deacon_Gray> yeah michelle’s open houses <Deacon_Gray> have some fun and learn something <Cammey> Gabe ~ Yes, a lot of comments, none of them good, a lot of them frustrated <Anshar> Gabe: Legal repercussions always have to be considered <sarasvati> Ditto to Cammey <LadyCG> S&M support doesn't have age restrictions.. never has <Sanguinarius> we walk a fine line with the age restrictions...on one hand they awaken at a young age and need the guidance then, but dang, we can't give it to them. :( <Cammey> I will say, with more openness in general, there is more info which is just "out there” <Gabrielx> anshar: I know from our side that's majority of what it is. <Cammey> which is always good <Lady Slinky> But it isn't a house either <Cammey> HK keeps our boards PG 13 <Cammey> I was a firm arguer on that <Sylvere> RVCA has age restrictions since I got threatened with a law suit for letting a 17 yr old into the group. <Cammey> mind you, our boards have (frankly) gone to crap <Deacon_Gray> isn't this the same conversation we always have more or less? * Sanguinarius hopes some day THAT will change, too <NyteMuse> Psyvamp.org tries to keep it PG-13 as well <Cammey> but keeping the boards not 18+ was a major push for me, and I think a good one <Sanguinarius> #Sanguinarius is 16+ <Sanguinarius> my chat room <Lady Slinky> VCMB is 13+ <Sanguinarius> I'll send youngun's to the VCMB <Cammey> if you accept vampirism as a condition, rather then as a belief system <Sanguinarius> I do anyway, though <Deacon_Gray> I dunno is it still snarky? <Cammey> it's really, really crappy <Cammey> to tell anyone under 18 <Cammey> sorry, screw you, you're out of luck <Gabrielx> ok, was just curious. * Gabrielx nods to cammey <Sanguinarius> for some it is a belief system, but for others it is a condition <Gabrielx> then they join a group that is a cult because their accepted <Lady Slinky> if they have parental consent they can be there before 13 but no one has sent the form yet <Sanguinarius> some people have both the condition AND the belief system <Cammey> I'll be honest, I'm more concerned about the condition <Sylvere> I send all the minors to apply for membership to Sangi <Merticus> AVA is 21+ because 95% of what we do is offline and involves events etc. that are sometimes 21+ only + other legal factors considered. Though forum is open to public. <Gabrielx> sorry just was on my mind had an issue recently <Sanguinarius> I am too <Cammey> the belief system is important as well, but it's the condition that actually concerns me * Anshar nods <LadyCG> I agree Cammey <zilchy> I think the best way to accommodate the minor-crowd would be to have some kind of local mentoring program for them so that the parents could meet up with the community leader(s) and decide for themselves. Just to legally cover our own asses. <Cammey> HK's open houses are any age - with parents <Cammey> that's probably one of the only non-18+ rl events <Cammey> club, of course, is 18+ <LadyCG> My focus is usually on helping young people look after their needs in a way that won't get them in any trouble <Sylvere> Sangi: all the minors who apply to join the RVCA - I send them to your room <NyteMuse> Could a move be made to make Twilight any age? <Sanguinarius> Some parents are closed minded and wouldn't have anything to do with that. A lot of them. But it is a good idea. <Sylvere> Mostly we get them in the 16 - 17 range. <NyteMuse> Or at least portions of Twilight? <Cammey> Sangi - MOST parents are, but it's a start <Merticus> Currently TWILIGHT is 18+ for the safety of those attending and our liability + insurance on the event itself. <Cammey> it's freaking _something_ <Lady Slinky> I have been surprised by the growing number of parents who are open minded about it. <Sylvere> My offline group for vamps is open to all ages with parent or guardian. <Sanguinarius> that's good <Sylvere> But the parent gets to meet me in person and decide if I'm ok. <Lady Slinky> We even have a couple parents on the forums <Sanguinarius> and that you're not going to take advantage of their precious lil darlings <sarasvati> I think a big part of how parents perceive it is when they go looks at our sites and realize we are giving sane, practical information not "KILL THEM ALL! NOM NOM! Bathe in the blood of man!!" :P <Sylvere> yep <Lady Slinky> indeed <Sylvere> Faerie glamour hard at work. ;-) <Sanguinarius> hell, I'm 37 now, and my mother still worries about crazies when I go to ShadowLore's Gatherings <zilchy> my folks nearly died, but that's because they're hyperconservative southern-baptist types. <Sanguinarius> I think she's beginning to realize that they aren't out to get me <Gabrielx> anyhow sorry for de-railing just was curious if we had thought of ways of dealing with them as well as we are thinking of ways of dealing with ourselves <NyteMuse> Gabe, sadly I think the best we can do (legally) is put the information out there and maybe list contact info for personal guidance, and leave it up to the contact ppl to get parental consent <LadyCG> On S&M we've always made it a known rule that we will ban on Parental request. In the 6+ years I've had the board, we've never had a request, or complaint <Lady Slinky> If you want to list everything then list everything but present it as listing everything with big bold we do not endorse this disclaimers. <Merticus> c. What do you consider to be the single greatest inhibitor to productive conversation or continuing education for those who are part of the community? What can we do to change this and why have we fallen short in the past? <Sanguinarius> egos <sarasvati> Ego <Sylvere> Ego <Gabrielx> 'my ways better' <NyteMuse> Focusing on the unimportant minutiae, like reinventing definitions <Gabrielx> ie: as they said ego's <Sphynx-NotHere> Thin skins. People with too much "my way or the highway" attitudes. If we are to grow as a community, we need to be more tolerant of other people's differences. I'm not saying to approve of every single viewpoint - I see no use promoting anyone who advocates that vampires can survive being shot, for example - and I'm not saying people have to AGREE either (it IS possible to politely disagree without incurring hard feelings) - but accepting divers <Sphynx-NotHere> If people are too busy sniping each other every chance we get, the only people who will gather are people who either have the stomach to give as good as they get (or who have the time to play politics), or people who share similar views. And we'll be no farther than where we are now - small clumps of people with similar views, or highly political organizations. <Sphynx-NotHere> The community IS diverse, and the diversity is NOT going to go away, despite what some people may think - it's time people woke up and realized that. <Lady Slinky> The greatest inhibitor to productive conversation and continuing education is the lack of facts within the community and the over abundance of ego filled speculation and supposed tradition with a focus on social eliteness.. <LadyCG> Keeping those of us who teach from burning out <zilchy> Concentrating on educating the noobs, inflated egos, political drama, etc. <Deacon_Gray> here here! <Deacon_Gray> noobs and me too <zilchy> another thing, lack of delegation within houses. <Sanguinarius> I hate politics and drama <Sylvere> Also, refusal to take a position on any subject on the grounds of "tolerance" <sarasvati> unfortunately fixing ego requires work from the ego... not so easy to do <Lady Slinky> and you fix one ego 4 more show up <Sanguinarius> the houses and groups don't interact enough with each other (#2 problem) <zilchy> then kick them in the face? * NyteMuse agrees with Sangi <zilchy> 'swhat I'd do... either that or delegate the newly rectified ego to go and fix their egos. <Sylvere> Oh hell...I'll just go out on a wire and say "House hierarchy" <Sanguinarius> lol, zilchy <Lady Slinky> egos are fragile and it would be overtaken <Sylvere> Half the drama trickles down from that. <Merticus> Well there are groups and efforts to encourage them to interact and communicate, however not always realized in practice. <Deacon_Gray> some egos are <Gabrielx> drama can start with no hierarchy as well <LadyCG> yes it can <Sylvere> I did say half. <Sylvere> Not all. <Sanguinarius> I have an ego, but I try my best to not let it get in the way of things <Gabrielx> nods <Deacon_Gray> ok it is time for me to go and leave the big brains to their devices...my brain is still a little too pickled from sun and beer <Deacon_Gray> good night all <Merticus> Anything else you view as an inhibitor to progress within the community? <Cammey> I'm actually going to go a different direction with this one and say: burnout <LadyCG> I agree Cammy <Lady Slinky> that’s a good one <NyteMuse> YES * Sylvere agrees with Cammy on that <LadyCG> It’s something I'm struggling with right now <Cammey> the few people who are really willing to put stuff together <Lady Slinky> I think a lot of us are burnt out. <Cammey> get frustrated by things - some well meaning, some not, and that slows down or stops overall efforts. <Sanguinarius> burnout from the hordes of newbies attitudes and thinking they know so much <Sanguinarius> but, that seems to be part of being a teenager <sarasvati> Burnout is definitely up there on the list too <Lady Slinky> I think the burn out comes from a variety of directions <Sylvere> Possibly lack of time for the "auld pharts" to devote to the community because of other responsibilities. <Sanguinarius> *nod* <Cammey> it doesn't matter if the newbies are the sweetest kindest newbies in the world, the hordes of them still can be problematic <Merticus> It's a struggle for some to have the patience to see projects to completion when others often are excited but unwilling to lend a hand as well... many "good ideas" within the community but little that materializes. <Cammey> their problems are VERY important to them <Cammey> right that moment <Cammey> and, somewhat rightly so. <Cammey> ... communication skills aside <LadyCG> At the end of the month, I'll be turning Smoke and Mirrors support on YUKU over to my old second in command, Craze. I need a break from public support board work. I'm learning to hate it desperately <Lady Slinky> yes they enter the community and 2 days later are giving out advice <Sanguinarius> the same questions from newbies, who are too lazy to do their reading, time after time after time after time after.... <Sanguinarius> and they don't listen, either <Sylvere> Apathy isn't new though. It's been an ongoing issue for the past 10 years. <sarasvati> It’s hard to care more about a person then they care about themselves...which is what happened when we spend more energy to tell someone something then they are willing to spend to read it <Cammey> Sara - Point. <Sanguinarius> everything I know, is up on my site. There shouldn't be any reason to email me :> <Lady Slinky> Which takes away from caring for ourselves and those who really are willing to listen * Sanguinarius nods <sarasvati> Its the same reason for burnout in the vetmed...vets cannot care more for a pet then the owner does...but we try anyway :P <Merticus> We all need breaks at times but motivation to re-kindle one's involvement in the community is helped when others are actually producing some kind of result. It's costly both in time and money to do many of the things we do for the community and many never manage to realize or appreciate this on any level. <Cammey> Mert - and friendly intelligent conversations <Cammey> I am rarely more encouraged then when I've spent time talking with intelligent people and getting my spirits up, it's why gathers are kinda vital for me, <Cammey> just with every community <Sanguinarius> I'm burned out, but I attend these VVC meetings because it does seem productive <Sylvere> I'm burned out on the "talk but never DO" aspects of the VC. <M_Belanger> Negative aspects ... could we have a little less dissension and warring egos, please? <LadyCG> I can say with some experience that being a public support board owner can suck. It has its good points but they don't outwiegh the stress. If we WANT to have long running support board owners we need a way to support THEM. so they don't burn out like I have over the past 6 years. * Sanguinarius agrees with LadyCG <zilchy> CG, if you want another example, look at Glass from OKA. <M_Belanger> I can't even bring myself to go to the Kheprian forums any more. <Sanguinarius> mine too <Cammey> (admittedly, speaking as a mid-tier person) you need more good mid-tier people <Cammey> to do things like organize stuff <Cammey> put work together <M_Belanger> The crazies drove me away. <NyteMuse> *giggle* Yes, the crazies... <Cammey> crazies == most of the cause for burnout <M_Belanger> It seems only the really whacked out people or the drama whores post, and the good folks are busy with RL or are just apathetic <Sanguinarius> the crazies will drive anyone away. you gotta drive them away first <Sanguinarius> but they keep coming <LadyCG> Zilchy over the past 13 +_ years I've seen tons of burnt out Vampire teaching board owners. I 'm not the first and I won't be the last. If we want to have support boards that are long running we need a way around burned out board owners <Merticus> I admit I have fallen victim to apathy when it comes to the forums... I'm simply too busy elsewhere or too hurried to answer redundant questions or monitor posts. <Sylvere> Sangi: Oh but we can't. That wouldn't be TOLERANT of their personal realities. <M_Belanger> They keep coming ... and when your slogan is "Seek Your Own Truth" they tend to beat you over the head with it <Cammey> Sylvere - there are days I have cursed 'seek your own truth' (our house motto) <Lady Slinky> I bet <Sylvere> Cammey: I'm sure. <NyteMuse> heh...yeah, you kinda ran yourself into a hole with that one <M_Belanger> Exactly. And we lose some good people that way, since they're too entangled in that "You believe my bullshit, I'll believe yours" mentality <M_Belanger> There's this fine line on calling the crazies -- we encountered it a little just trying to come up with a majority definition of vampire <M_Belanger> Everyone has an opinion. Some of them stink, but at what point is it intolerant to speak out against that stench? <Lady Slinky> that is a big problem I find <Sylvere> The community has ceased to employ any rational thought and will accept any half-baked notion to flit through someone's head because to do otherwise would be "intolerant." <Merticus> What can we do to engage ourselves more on forums and online communication with those coming into the community for the first time or who have not found a stable forum or medium of intelligent conversation? Should we shoulder such a role? <Lady Slinky> I don't think we should or realistically can <Cammey> Mert - my personal solution, use some of the moderately educated giant egos <Cammey> to answer newbie question 346 <M_Belanger> Well, this moderately educated giant ego just doesn't have time to mince words with people. <M_Belanger> And my frustration starts to come through ... which doesn't help. <Gypsy-HSM> I have a real problem relating to self-claimed vamps that have no psychic abilities or vamp auras or anything I can grab onto - is that remote? <Anshar> Mert: Availability and humility is the only thing that can serve that purpose. <Anshar> Anything active would probably be fruitless. <Anshar> Just being there to answer questions if they direct them, and being humble enough to express our views and views and not fact should be the main motivators of truth in the community. <Anshar> as views and not fact* <M_Belanger> Verifying someone's legitimacy through an internet connection or even relying just on words ... I don't know about that. <Gypsy-HSM> If I can't reach out and touch you, then I can't always reach out and relate <Merticus> Well one thing the VVC did set up via the web site is a "Community Feedback" section - it's currently is testing mode to see how it runs but if you haven't visited the link you may wish to do so (brought up at the last meeting) http://www.veritasvosliberabit.com/communityfeedback.html <Sylvere> We can only answer n00b question 256 so many times. <Cammey> Sylvere - especially after the article is written, and out there <M_Belanger> As for my boards, it seems like we end up with more self-appointed infiltrators from other systems than much of anything else. <M_Belanger> TOV, OSV, TOS -- HK seems unduly fascinating to them all. <Sylvere> Cammey: exactly <Merticus> Yes, I agree. <Sanguinarius> you'll get people wanting to be vampires begging you to make them so <NyteMuse> It seems like 2 aids to the system would be 1: having multiple competent ppl available to answer questions so you can rotate frustrations, and 2, have a file of stock answers to the most commonly asked stuff. Yeah, ppl posts FAQs on sites, but newbs don't read it. I've copy/pasted a LOT of answers on forums from FAQs and news are fine with it <Cammey> M- at least they're amusing <Cammey> even if not everyone agrees *smile* <Sylvere> Nyte: #2 doesn't work <NyteMuse> Well, HK _is_ the famous one... <Sanguinarius> "I know you get this all the time, but I'm the one important exception you should make me a vampire. I'm meant to be one blah blah blah" <M_Belanger> Bah. Sangi <Sylvere> We can't even agree what the "stock answers" are or should be because we keep wanting people to figure out for themselves <M_Belanger> 'Sangi's been around lots longer and is far more visible online, IMO <Lady Slinky> I still don't get why they come to my place looking for HK though. <Cammey> I know this is going to sound a little weird, but I wrote up something for internal HK use <NyteMuse> Sangi doesn't appear on multiple documentaries :p <Cammey> you'd be amazed how often people walk away happy <Sanguinarius> yeah, my site's bigger than Google! j/k <Cammey> when I copy-and-paste sections of the 'internal training book' <Cammey> copy-and-paste to an email works really well <Cammey> in general <Lady Slinky> they just read the book and gosh are they excited! <NyteMuse> Sylvere: I wasn't suggesting for global usage, just on people's individual boards <Sanguinarius> Cammy, do tell! <M_Belanger> Well, I think she should -- the blood drinkers need a well-spoken advocate. <Merticus> Yes, feel free to share - least in part if possible. * zilchy perks <Sanguinarius> I'm not well spoken <Cammey> Ironically, I don't think any of the HK members have read it besides like, Andrea <Cammey> and Michelle chunks of it <Sanguinarius> just in print <Cammey> but it's good material regardless <Sylvere> Sangi's been in print before. I remember the Pitch Weekly interview. <M_Belanger> Yeah, and they all think because one line struck them like a chord, they must belong to my thing ... so not my intention. Ah well. That milk is all over the table. <Sanguinarius> yeah, I still got that, lol, came cross it the other day while cleaning <Sylvere> I wish I'd saved it. <NyteMuse> Or because they really really really like mummies, they MUST have had a past life in the temples and are thus members of the House and omg, why won't you let them in the House even though they live 2 countries away! <Sylvere> Of course, it probably would have died in the flood of my storage unit. <Merticus> Sangi - would you mind scanning in photo form to VVC Gallery section? <Sanguinarius> I can scan it for you if I can get my scanner to work <M_Belanger> Yup -- that was long-lost cousin Nek-Ta (neck tie?!?) and Darth Marduk. <Cammey> .... better then people that say they must be part of the House because they where this pharaoh’s concubine once. <Sylvere> I'd love to have a copy. <Sanguinarius> Darth Marduk? <M_Belanger> Funniest piece of fan mail ever. <Gypsy-HSM> If it wasn't for doing acid in the '80s I'd have no past life memories - it's the same one - so, most of them – that’s just crazy <Anshar> my apologies folks, but I have an appointment <NyteMuse> Did he go evil because of love for Tiamat? <M_Belanger> Called himself Darth Marduk. Seriously. <Lady Slinky> yes but why do they not go to house K first? <M_Belanger> Can we make it a part of Netiquette to not be a stupid git and move on? :) <Sylvere> MB: you can try but I don't think it will work <Sanguinarius> The Stupid do not think they are stupid <Merticus> d. What steps are you personally taking to support the community or aid in the education of others about vampirism? <Sphynx-NotHere> As personal circumstances preclude any offline involvement, my website, and my involvement in Sanguinarius' IRC channel are the two primary avenues of my involvement within and support of the community. IRC allows real-time conversation, and my website provides information that people can access 24x7, year-round. <Sphynx-NotHere> With what I've seen from the Vampire Survey project, getting accurate medical information out there to people is much more important than many people seem to realize - most of the issues I've seen in the samples released to the public show many common health issues that can be mitigated or eliminated with proper nutrition (diet, supplements or both) or other adaptive steps. <Sphynx-NotHere> Because of that, I research medical issues for people who ask, while providing links for them to investigate further, and/or provide recommendations on topics for them to follow up on with their physician or other medical staff. <Sphynx-NotHere> I also provide articles from different people that offer different perspectives in an effort to highlight the diversity of opinions that are in the community. <Cammey> M - you want to go over Kherete, or should I? * zilchy points at YouTube <M_Belanger> Hope springs eternal. I've tilted at crazier windmills. <NyteMuse> Participating in projects that I feel will aid the community and putting as many articles as I can in forums not already covered <M_Belanger> Cammey -- go for it <Sylvere> I've also got the RVCA with Deacon and SapphoWolf as my mods. That's my limit. <Lady Slinky> I generally do not do community wide projects. <Merticus> Any projects, etc. you'd like to single out specifically? <sarasvati> I am (still) working on a complex survey to hopefully get a better idea of the "symptoms" of vampirism by looking at frequency of vampire-related problems vs same issues in the regular human population. My sticking point is the human survey right now <M_Belanger> My biggest thing right now? I'm trying to get access to ghost-hunting technology and related stuff to start running tests on myself. <Sanguinarius> wtg sarasvati <Merticus> As for myself; the VEWRS/AVEWRS, TWILIGHT, the local Atlanta meetup group, House AVA, and of course here with the VVC. <NyteMuse> Me personally, VVC, DN, and helping Cammey with the Kherete stuff <NyteMuse> And House Rosa <LadyCG> My newest project is the Vampriic Library on Second Life. Everyones heard lots about it in the last meeting and there is a thread up on VVC so I don't need to go into it here.. but if you're in Second Life and want to drop by drop me a Hail: LadyCG Llewellyn on Second Life <Lady Slinky> do you think you’re a ghost? <M_Belanger> Doing an energy exchange in front of a thermographic camera, etc., <Cammey> HK, or more, a chunk of HK, has been working on a project called the Kherete project. The really short version is an education portal with books, teaching aids, and a forum - possibly other stuff - meant to sort of generalize HK's stuff. I'm not going to lie, it does a pretty good job of straddling practice vs. religion <NyteMuse> As well as promoting more classes/articles at pagan and magical schools, like Grey School <Gabrielx> participating in projects, had a support site (it'll be back), Bloodmoon, articles, chat channel, radio show, education, etc <Cammey> It's mainly meant as a way to address a couple of things: 1. All the serious seekers who really want to get into HK stuff, but which HK doesn't have the time or inclination to really admit into the House. 2. The need for better general vamp education. It's definitely our system, but we're trying to put it out there in a way which is meant to be taken and modified. <Gabrielx> even though were a lot more locally active for the moment <M_Belanger> Slinky -- no, but the tech they use to ghost-hunt measures energy, typically, and I've interfered with ppl's use of it before. I think some of it might reliably record some of the things psi-vamps do. <Cammey> <could go on for a long time, but leaves it at that unless someone really wants to know> <Sanguinarius> interesting <Lady Slinky> Sounds like that could be interesting <Gypsy-HSM> May I ask a strange social vamp question? <Gypsy-HSM> why is everyone mixing vampirism and magical religions - is it necessary to follow TOV's bad example? <Gypsy-HSM> Isn't that confusing what we worked hard to pull away from in the Dion Fortune comments? <LadyCG> Remember .. I'm looking for donations of articles and books to put in the library. All info from the community is welcome and I've donated my own book to the library there, if you don't have a copy and want one <NyteMuse> Gypsy, everyone? <M_Belanger> Yeah -- Kherete project = Open Source Kheprianism. So many people want to belong. I don't exactly want to lead them, so I'm handing them the system to do with it as they please. <Cammey> Gypsy - because it's what people want <Gypsy-HSM> So vampirism has to be magickal? <Cammey> M - exactly, Open Source Kheperianism <Cammey> Gypsy - has to be, no <Cammey> is in our system <Cammey> definitely <sarasvati> Gypsy-HSM: I think because for some the two are not separate, and going back to earlier conversations, we do not have all the knowledge yet to say what is crazy and what is not... its all beliefs <Lady Slinky> I think energy vampirism has a tendency to lean that way sometimes <Lady Slinky> that it may be but that is why it happens <Gabrielx> We personally don't at LH, it is a selected path in the criteria if they wish it though do to the fact our members are really diverse and don't hold to one belief <NyteMuse> (Wreck's driving or something and couldn't post, but his contribution is administrating the forums at psyvamp.org) <sarasvati> The two do not HAVE to be linked, but for some they are... <Gypsy-HSM> I think energy vamps are natural witches and vice versa - but that's apples and oranges <M_Belanger> It does, Slinky. Can't deny it. The techniques to feed energetically have too much in common with magick and energy work not to draw some parallels at least. <Sanguinarius> for psi vampires,, at least <Cammey> Sangi - agreed <Lady Slinky> Also the magical community was the first to "out" energy vamps to the public. <Cammey> we're not trying to pretend to be anything but one take. <Cammey> and this particular take happens to be very much along the magical lines <M_Belanger> Yeah -- that's the perspective I'm writing from, generally. <Cammey> it even dips into philosophy <Sylvere> I have to say I cringe when vampirism gets lumped together with religious philosophies. I can't help feeling it's a precarious position that will Not. End. Well. <Gypsy-HSM> yes sangi - that distinction often makes sanguines second class magickal or whatever <Sylvere> But that's just me. <Sanguinarius> yeah <Cammey> and is meant as an al la carte system <Lady Slinky> I do as well Sylvere <Gypsy-HSM> Preach on Sylvere <LadyCG> to me Sanguinarianism has NOTHING to do with religion at all. <Cammey> CG - fair. <Sylvere> LadyCG: Bingo. <zilchy> because it really doesnt... <Cammey> I am very much not sanguine <LadyCG> I feed.. therefore, I am, lol <Gypsy-HSM> maybe no one understands that we are metaphysical beings not metaphysics itself <Lady Slinky> That is my slant as well <Sylvere> I don't see energy vamping as religious in any way either. <Cammey> sylvere - doesn't have to be <zilchy> but CG, that's a philosophy, not a religion <M_Belanger> I want to focus more on teaching mechanics rather than belief-systems, leaving the spiritual application up to the individual. <Sanguinarius> I'm a physical being <LadyCG> What is, Zilchy? <Lady Slinky> I think that is wise <zilchy> "I feed therefore I am" <Merticus> Personally I try to keep my spiritual views and vampirism as two separate entities but of course that is another debate and the subject of a paper soon to be released hopefully in the fall through Nova Religio. <Sylvere> I am therefore I feed. <M_Belanger> I really think it's possible to learn the mechanics of energy work in a fashion that is separate from any spiritual interpretations of that energy work. <Sanguinarius> what's Nova Religio? <Gypsy-HSM> Most of HSM is now irreligious and/or agnostic - the witches are all gone save me and Brad - we're almost gone (LOL!!) <LadyCG> I just know for me its very physical and I suffer physically I don't feed, so its not in any way religious to me <Merticus> It's a compendium publisher for religious based writings, etc. The AVA and Suscitatio have been shadowed for the past year+ by a member of the AAR (American Academy of Religion) - we've been emphasizing that vampirism and religion are not equivalent institutions - just bear some commonality and crossover at times as do many other aspects of a social identity group. <Sanguinarius> I am therefore I feed <Sanguinarius> I like that <Cammey> for me it's not religious <Cammey> but there are definitely people who want it to be <Gypsy-HSM> I definitely want to be taller but it ain't gonna happen * Gabrielx nods to cammey <Cammey> because, let's face it, the systems which have presented a way to explain all of this have definitely drawn a lot of attention, and a lot of them have been... not my favorites <NyteMuse> My vampirism affects my religion/spirituality, but it isn't the same thing *shrug* <Cammey> frankly, I'm a very RHP Athena - worshiper <Cammey> but there are definitely people who look for *meaning* <M_Belanger> For an energy vamp, it's hard to avoid terminology and techniques that others equate with religious and/or spiritual systems. I don't think it's religious unto itself. But our culture lacks the necessary paradigm to view this invisible force in terms that aren't at least somewhat esoteric. <Cammey> and I think providing a starting place for that is filling a genuine need <LadyCG> I think its easier for we Sanguines to keep the two separate <Sanguinarius> maybe there is no meaning, maybe it's just the way things are? <Sanguinarius> like life <Sylvere> My spiritual views are closest to Hinduism but combine dynastic Egyptian, Native American, Kabbalistic, and Celtic elements. <Gypsy-HSM> I'm finishing my Dianic Training - a Kabbalah/Voodoo devotee - I am all over but never into vamp-y goddesses <Sylvere> Go ahead, unravel THAT mess. <M_Belanger> I agree, CG <Cammey> pretty much everyone in HK <Cammey> has a different set of religious beliefs <Cammey> pretty directly <zilchy> and the satanist stays in the corner... <Cammey> but I think it's an area where there's a lot of serious need and interest <Cammey> also, note, I'm not totally going there, <Gypsy-HSM> But dropping someone (from feeding) at a bar when your really hungry is an amazing religion <Cammey> but I don't think touching on it is a terrible thing <Cammey> provided it's presented as just one system or many <Sylvere> Heeeere Satanist...come out come out wherever you are <M_Belanger> LaVeyan, Luciferian, or some other flavor? <Kmerathaetra> Teriyaki satanist <NyteMuse> Rocky Road? *snicker* <zilchy> MB, my own brand <M_Belanger> Just curious. <zilchy> bit of LaVeyan with a lot of "I'm my own God in this realm." <Merticus> Is anyone else involved with other projects they'd like to share information about? <M_Belanger> Gods, I don't even know how one would classify my actual religious beliefs. <Sanguinarius> well, I made the 2nd edition of my terms and lingo into a book, and I'm eventually going to get a Library of congress number and an ISBN <Sanguinarius> Go check out The Dictionary of Sanguinese: Terminology and Lingo in the Vampire Community (Second Edition), by Sanguinarius, at http://www.lulu.com/content/1797153 and buy a copy! Heck, buy 20 copies! <M_Belanger> Most of my latest writing projects aren't connected with the vampire community. <Gypsy-HSM> I am trying a new experiment on HSM - just a wide open party every sabbat - check out depression/energy health <Gypsy-HSM> no ritual, <Sanguinarius> and I'm collecting terms slowly for the 3rd edition which prolly won't be out for a number of years, lol <M_Belanger> And I'm starting to wonder whether I should go forward with a volume II of the anthology or not. <NyteMuse> Michelle, why wouldn't you? <Gypsy-HSM> just a keg, food, music, and candles here and there in the colors of the sabbats, the proper oils, herbs, etc <LadyCG> Michelle.. I want to try to remember to beg you to see if you have any articles you'd be willing to donate the use of for the Library <M_Belanger> Too much controversy. I tried my best to give as many people as possible a voice, and most of the complaints and negative reviews are still about how I'm just pushing my own views on people. <Sylvere> Michelle: Considering the limits on how many books you can publish, you should probably put out as much of your own stuff as you can. <Sanguinarius> Also, I will be moving toward the end of June, to Arizona, in or around Tucson, to be near my folks <Sanguinarius> but that's not really a project <Gabrielx> we have a lot of local get togethers, so if you're in the area just msg me and I'll let you know if anything is going on .. or to hang out for some coffee or the such <NyteMuse> Aw, that sucks...I was going to try and write something for this round <Sylvere> Sangi: have fun with the heat <Merticus> If you are still looking for a September submission deadline I can come up with a couple articles etc. In other projects news Daemonox and I are still deciding on where to hold TWILIGHT III - between San Francisco, CA or Seattle, WA for July 2008. (Update: Seattle, WA won in the final poll) <M_Belanger> Lady CG -- I'd been out of the loop on the project, but you can have anything & everything <Sylvere> I don't envy you. <M_Belanger> Well, that I'm not bound by copyrights to protect. <LadyCG> Thank you Michelle. I appreciate that <LadyCG> I'll talk to you about what can be used <Sylvere> Mert: What happened to Chicago as a possible site? <M_Belanger> The only two that would be off limits are the PVC and the full text of Vampires: In Their Own Words <Sanguinarius> if it is on the west coast, I have more of a chance of coming, lol <Gypsy-HSM> It's money - it's Llewellyn, it's not like it's . . . a reputable publication, it's a metaphysical tabloid in book form <Merticus> Chicago is on the list for consideration for TWILIGHT IV. <LadyCG> I hold the copyrights on all my work so I donated it all.. if anyone wants to read anything of mine it will be in the library on Second Life <M_Belanger> *But* I fought for the right for each contributor to have the freedom to reprint their own work even after the book came out <M_Belanger> So any of them can send their articles to you separately. <Merticus> If you'd like to view photos and a short synopsis + the program guide from TWILIGHT II you can visit: http://www.suscitatio.com/twilight.html <Lady Slinky> that must have been some doing <M_Belanger> But get ready to see Jay in the ugliest burnt orange shirt I've ever seen. :P <Sylvere> It doesn't really matter. I've got an internship with a publishing house this summer so I won't be traveling. <Cammey> M - not worse then you in light-blue jeans <NyteMuse> lol...yeah, that was a kick. Though that black & white pic of you was pretty good <M_Belanger> Hey, what's wrong with my Tommy Hilfigers? <M_Belanger> I have a pair of jeans I bought for a character ... and a very loud canary yellow shirt. <Gabrielx> Michelle: I still laugh when remembering you walking in that other outfit at Pcon :p <Gypsy-HSM> I got a new Prada Fairies Handbag - so I feel that I am opening up to Otherkin some - *smirk* <NyteMuse> *raised eyebrow* Other outfit? <M_Belanger> They are *so* not me, it amuses me to wear them now and again. <Merticus> e. What are current projects or gatherings designed with the community in mind and what can we do to support these initiatives and encourage others to attend? <Merticus> We've already touched on this with TWILIGHT III and Michelle's Open House but feel free to elaborate and other gatherings in the works... <Gypsy-HSM> Dave and I are attending HK's open House <Gabrielx> We’re still deciding on bloodmoon (per date) <M_Belanger> Kheprian Open House is June 6-8 for those interested. <Sanguinarius> well, when I get to Tucson area, I plan on trying to get the community there connected and holding some informal meet n greets <M_Belanger> I'm doing DragonCon again, and they're planning to expand the vampire track there <Sylvere> I'm still eagerly awaiting Zilchy's next video but other than that, I got nothing. <Gabrielx> sang: I'm surprised anyone’s even in Tucson hehe <Sanguinarius> gotta be more in Tucson than in Topeka <NyteMuse> DragonCon might have to wait for 2010 for me...still debating Convocation for /09 <Sanguinarius> yeah, I like zilchy's videos <zilchy> havent gotten around to the next video due to some tool backing into my car and removing the front end. <Sanguinarius> Gab, hopefully there are some there <LadyCG> To help and support the Vampiric Library project please send any articles you are willing to donate to ladycg@gmail.com with your copyright info and any links to your main website you want included in the piece. <Merticus> I should be at the HK Gathering, TWILIGHT III, and DragonCon + other events around Halloween, etc. <M_Belanger> I'm on the board for Univ-Con now also, and working with the board for the Michigan Pagan convention ConVocation. All are now vamp friendly <Cammey> Convocation rocked, but that was more pagan-outreach, and we don't have next year's schedule <Gypsy-HSM> Michelle, I have a booth at Convergence in Tampa for my Shoppe - I can vend whatever you ship to me and I'll ship it back afterward with profits <Sylvere> If Sangi could ever get a ride to KC, we've got a decent little group going. <M_Belanger> Convo, which happens in February, will feature me & Raven Kaldera on a panel together <Merticus> I'd like to see an informal gathering of the community at DragonCon since many of us will be in Atlanta already. <M_Belanger> Well, I'm planning on sticking around for several days afterward -- Jay's schedule will be my only constraint <M_Belanger> Presuming he's not a cop by then <Merticus> Black Oaks Savannah (GA) is the weekend of May 30th - HDH is planning an entire weekend of events along with Voltaire playing etc. - www.blackoakssavannah.com for more info. <M_Belanger> Actually, he got tired of bouncing bars in Detroit <Sanguinarius> mmm, Voltaire rocks <M_Belanger> Sitting on a panel with him at DragonCon one does not get a word in edgewise. Not that I minded. <Sylvere> I think Voltaire played STL recently or will be playing there in the near future. <Merticus> IV. Business Reminders <Merticus> Refer to the forum for all current discussions. Please continue to follow-up on the updated buddy list chart that was discussed at the last business meeting and subsequently created several weeks ago. <Merticus> Scheduling of the next business meeting will be slated for voting in early to mid-May. <Merticus> Thank you all for coming! <Merticus> <<<<<<END MEETING LOG>>>>>>
August 9, 2008 - VVC Meeting
Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) Public Meeting – August 9, 2008
Attendees (22):
Acrophobic Pixie – Black Swan Haven (BSH) Anshar Seraphim – House Lost Haven Camazotz – Sanguinox (NOX) Message Board Craze – Smoke & Mirrors (Yuku) Message Board Gabriel – House Lost Haven Khan – The Dark Nations & Independent Representative Lady CG – Smoke & Mirrors Messages Board(s) & Vampire Library (SL) Lono – PsychicVampire.org Merticus – Atlanta Vampire Alliance (AVA) & Suscitatio Enterprises, LLC Michelle Belanger – House Kheperu & MichelleBelanger.com Mike Future – Vampire Community Message Board (VCMB) NyteMuse – House Rosa Ravena – House Lost Haven RavenHarte – Clann Caladvwlch Reija – Independent Representative SapphoWolf – House Maidenfear sarasvati – Echoes of Night & VCMB Sovereign – Independent Representative SphynxCatVP – SphynxCatVP Real Vampires Support Site Sylvere ap Leanan – Real Vampires Community Alliance (RVCA) Vyrdolak – By Light Unseen Zilchy – Independent Representative
Discussion Agenda:
I. Meeting Information
Welcome to the second public meeting of Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) for 2008. If you have not attended a VVC meeting before or are reading this for the first time please briefly take note of how this meeting will be conducted. The transcript from tonight’s meeting is being logged and will be made publicly available.
Topics will be presented in the order they appear on the agenda (VVC members may refer to the forum or their e-mail for tonight’s schedule). Please do not skip ahead and please do not suggest discussion of items not on the agenda until at the end of each major discussion topic.
Feel free to speak your mind on any and all topics in a civil manner and offer any supporting information, links, or material as needed. Thank you for coming and now let’s begin!
II. Background & Introduction
VVC was founded January 2006.
The purpose of the Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) is to develop friendly relations among the various Houses, Covens, Orders, organizations, and individual leaders of the vampire community; to encourage cooperation in solving community related problems and in promoting respect for the views, ideas, and opinions of others without seeking to establish a unifying or governing body; and to be a center for harmonizing the actions of groups in attaining these ends. – August 8, 2006
Voices Of The Vampire Community (VVC) does not assert itself as the exclusive organization of leaders or notable persons in the vampi(y)re community nor do we view ourselves or our actions as legislative or authoritarian.
The members of the VVC are representative of multiple groups, Houses, Orders, paths, beliefs, and segments of the vampi(y)re community who meet and are able to put aside personal differences to work together to discuss, suggest, implement, and support projects, ideas, and other intellectual works that help to improve the overall community.
We are available to answer questions through the community feedback form available at the site above.
III. Discussion
As a departure from the specific matters we discuss in business meetings, tonight’s meeting will take a broader and more relevant approach to the vampi(y)re community. Opinions offered from members of the VVC who are unable to attend tonight’s meeting will be posted first after the asking of each question. All present members please allow time for this to occur prior to posting your own response. Just as a reminder, conversation is to be kept civil, statements or claims backed by example where necessary, and in cases of insuperable disagreements; a concession between parties to respectfully agree to disagree.
a. Given the independent and often antisocial nature of many vampires, do you feel the vampire community can ever achieve a level of cohesive functionality? At what point does our diversity cease being our greatest strength and become our greatest liability? Does the present state of our “community” hamper the growth of the individual by only encouraging support or has enough effort been made to motivate vampires to become self-reliant as they grow in the understanding of their own personal vampirism?
b. The vampire community has languished for years due in no small part to individuals who sought attention, albeit positive or negative for the satisfaction of themselves rather than for the benefit of the community (we’re not here to name anyone in particular). As leaders of the vampire community (the owners and operators of the major web sites, forums, groups, and discussion lists), how do you characterize your responsibility to this community without falling victim to narcissism, excessive ego, or a desire to achieve influence over others? How do you distinguish the community decisions you make as transcendent of mere personal aspirations while remaining cognizant of your own wants or needs? How important is the factor of respect by your fellow vampires to what you do and how you define yourself?
c. The following question involves a project the VVC is considering regarding the translation of important vampirism / vampire community written or printed materials into languages other than English. If you had to choose a handful (5 or so) documents, articles, or other bodies of work that represent the fundamental ideals of the vampire community to translate into foreign languages (French, Spanish, German, Russian, etc.), which would these be and why? Aside from translations, what steps are you personally taking to reach out to vampires in other countries and what additional measures could be explored by the community as a whole?
d. Everyone take a moment to share your opinion on a project the VVC has the opportunity to spearhead. There are many in this community who seek specific guidance for difficult situations or questions that may not always be answered via message boards or through the insight of one particular individual in an e-mail. Still other members would like the ability to be connected with others in the community in real-time or have at their disposal a collective resource for multiple viewpoints. To this end, on a trial basis let’s establish a bi-monthly online VVC hosted chat advertised to the major forums and groups of the community. At these chats, members will be able to ask their questions in a moderated format and request additional support if needed by e-mail or other means of follow-up. What are your thoughts or opinions on this concept? How should such be implemented?
e. Other topics you’d like to bring up for discussion?
IV. Business Reminders
<Merticus> <<<<<< BEGIN MEETING LOG >>>>>> <Merticus> Voices of the Vampire Community <Merticus> Public Meeting – August 9, 2008 <Merticus> Discussion Agenda: <Merticus> I. Meeting Information <Merticus> Welcome to the second public meeting of Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) for 2008. If you have not attended a VVC meeting before or are reading this for the first time please briefly take note of how this meeting will be conducted. The transcript from tonight’s meeting is being logged and will be made publicly available. <Merticus> Topics will be presented in the order they appear on the agenda (VVC members may refer to the forum or their e-mail for tonight’s schedule). Please do not skip ahead and please do not suggest discussion of items not on the agenda until at the end of each major discussion topic. <Merticus> Feel free to speak your mind on any and all topics in a civil manner and offer any supporting information, links, or material as needed. Thank you for coming and now let’s begin! <Merticus> II. Background & Introduction <Merticus> VVC was founded January 2006 <Merticus> The purpose of the Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) is to develop friendly relations among the various Houses, Covens, Orders, organizations, and individual leaders of the vampire community; to encourage cooperation in solving community related problems and in promoting respect for the views, ideas, and opinions of others without seeking to establish a unifying or governing body; and to be a center for harmonizing the actions of groups in attaining these ends. – August 8, 2006 <Merticus> Voices Of The Vampire Community (VVC) does not assert itself as the exclusive organization of leaders or notable persons in the vampi(y)re community nor do we view ourselves or our actions as legislative or authoritarian. <Merticus> The members of the VVC are representative of multiple groups, Houses, Orders, paths, beliefs, and segments of the vampi(y)re community who meet and are able to put aside personal differences to work together to discuss, suggest, implement, and support projects, ideas, and other intellectual works that help to improve the overall community. <Merticus> For more information please visit our web site at: http://www.veritasvosliberabit.com/vvc.html <Merticus> We are available to answer questions through the community feedback form available at the site above. <Merticus> III. Discussion <Merticus> As a departure from the specific matters we discuss in business meetings, tonight’s meeting will take a broader and more relevant approach to the vampi(y)re community. Opinions offered from members of the VVC who are unable to attend tonight’s meeting will be posted first after the asking of each question. All present members please allow time for this to occur prior to posting your own response. Just as a reminder, conversation is <Merticus> to be kept civil, statements or claims backed by example where necessary, and in cases of insuperable disagreements; a concession between parties to respectfully agree to disagree. <Merticus> Let’s start the evening with these questions: <Merticus> a. Given the independent and often antisocial nature of many vampires, do you feel the vampire community can ever achieve a level of cohesive functionality? At what point does our diversity cease being our greatest strength and become our greatest liability? Does the present state of our “community” hamper the growth of the individual by only encouraging support or has enough effort <Merticus> been made to motivate vampires to become self-reliant as they grow in the understanding of their own personal vampirism? <Merticus> a. SphynxCatVP: Depends on whether people can get off their toosh. If things continue as they are today, then no. If people suddenly get a clue and realize that people CAN work together without having to feel self-important to the exclusion of all others, then yes. <CrazeDS> If we can stop letting the endless drama and rumors without evidence get in our way, then I don't see why not. <LadyCG> Actually, I do...or at least as much functionality as the Pagan community does. It doesn’t really take us all to agree on everything to accomplish that. It just takes us to accept that we're all Vampires and that we're all in this together for good or ill. <LadyCG> We don't have to GO along... we really just have to GET along and learn to agree to disagree, once in a while. In reality a good many of us DO get along and over the past couple of years I see fewer board wars and more people talking and cross posting. It’s all a good sign. Maybe we haven't actually stopped to look at the good changes we are seeing because we're always so tied up in knots looking at all the problems. <LadyCG> As for growth, I have to say that most of us awakened without help at all, and I think as a whole there is a LOT of help and info out there for newly awakening vampires. I don't know that the state of the community as a whole matters as much as insuring we each do our part in supporting our Vamplings and new vampires. Vampires continue to awaken and develop with no help at all. I know I did, long before communities ever existed. As long as we’re <LadyCG> offering support; then I think the state of the community matters a lot less. * NyteMuse agrees with Sphynx <Lono> agrees with both Sphynx and CG <Vyrdolak> These questions are problematical for me because I don't agree with their basic premises. I'm unconvinced that vampires are any more "antisocial" than members of any eccentric special-interest group, such as science-fiction fans, Pagans, dog fanciers or model train hobbyists. There is obviously a very strong urge among vampires to long for, and look for, others of like mind, to stay in online venues where they feel comfortable and to join or form groups in real life. <Vyrdolak> Those aren't the behavior patterns of "antisocial" people. As far as "independence" goes, any person who identifies with a culturally disparaged sub-group and then acts on that identification is independent-minded by definition. That alone doesn't preclude the formation of a strong community by such people. Given this, I think vampires can form a community just as cohesive and functional as, say, science-fiction fans who annually put on conventions for 2000 people. Vampires just have to decide that they really want to do that. <Vyrdolak> I also disagree with the premise of the "diversity" question, because I'm not convinced that vampires are "diverse." I think they just choose to see themselves that way by focusing on unreal and superficial "differences." It's our self-perception, not real "diversity" that is creating such divisions. The vampire community is a lot like that grade school class, in the famous experiment, whose teacher gave them an object lesson in prejudice by dividing them by eye color and telling one group they were superior to the other. <Vyrdolak> I think the vampire community's "teachers" in this regard are identifiable persons (such as Amy Krieytaz) whose influence remains profound even though they themselves are long gone. I think the community hampers its own growth by focusing on "support." I don't think it has enough impact on individuals to influence them that strongly, outside of the most highly structured and authoritarian of the offline groups (and those only affect a tiny minority of vampiric people). The main reason for the community to move beyond the "support group" model is so the community itself can evolve as an entity, not because that model is a material hindrance to the members. <Sylvere> Yes, it’s possible but only if a lot of major changes happen. Among these are: Less tolerance of stupidity (meaning we should entertain enough skepticism to challenge improbable ideas), false hierarchies not based on merit, and those who seek to live in a fantasy realm of “Thee Powah of teh UberVampyre”, and more support for those who are working to bridge the gap between our community and the general public. <M_Belanger> If we continue to allow our differences to divide us, no. At the moment, there are too many people involved in the community who allow ideological differences to get in the way of productive communication and cooperation. <Sylvere> We must also get past the knee-jerk reaction of “unity = bad” and recognize that unity doesn’t necessarily equal a loss of diversity. <Camazotz> *agrees with Michelle* <Merticus> I think this will largely depend on the degree of cohesiveness we are willing to acknowledge as evidence of productive organization or group effort. Many of us need to reevaluate our intolerance of others; finding common ground when possible or at the very least listening to what each of us has to say. On the other hand, while some may view it politically correct to be accepting of all ideas, factions, groups, and individuals within <Merticus> this community, I feel if we are to ever achieve the goals we establish for ourselves certain standards of what we’re willing to accept as plausible descriptors of vampirism or as acceptable behaviors need to be at the very least a component of multi-forum/group/etc. discussion. <Merticus> While it is true most of us tend to be individualistic and sometimes distrustful of any high level of structure, it is not to say that we are unable to work together as an effective group albeit in minor or serious matters. This community can provide support while at the same time fostering growth of the individual on multiple levels (not just coping with vampirism) and I honestly think the latter is sometimes lost along the way. <NyteMuse> Agreed. The other communities managed to rally behind some common thing. The vampire community needs to focus more on that and less on the differences. <SapphoWolf> Cohesive functionality can be achieved, but I think it's a matter of finding common ground in the things we all do not stand for rather than to set forth a set of rigid guidelines. <Sylvere> I think we’ve *already* reached the point where our diversity is a liability. We cannot or will not so much as agree on a commonly accepted definition of the word “vampire” or a written statement of ethics that is based on how we really live rather than a role-playing game. Until that happens we will never achieve unity in any meaningful way. <Camazotz> I think we need to start looking to areas where we can agree, rather than getting bogged down on the same few topics over and over. <RavenHarte> Perhaps the point is not unity, but union... Unity implies a single purpose. <Sylvere> The growth of individuals is hampered by having no solid foundation from which to begin. “Seek Your Own Truth” is a fine idea *but* without a starting point, all it accomplishes is leaving the seeker to flounder aimlessly. We also need to be willing to guide those with less experience to discover answers by providing concrete feedback rather than telling them to figure things out for themselves and leaving it at that. <CrazeDS> There are always going to be differences of opinion, of course, but I think we need to STOP letting those differences of opinion cause huge gaps in relationships. <SapphoWolf> Exactly RavenHarte <AncientKhan> This will work when we stop trying to make someone's views on the community more right than another, and allow people to be themselves, while instituting a bit of common sense. <sarasvati> I think "cohesive functionality" is a really good term, and achievable... complete agreement and cuddly feelings for all? No, but we can, I think all work together on the basic points available. <M_Belanger> I think the large number of GenX-aged individuals at "elder" levels of the community might be a contributing factor to our problem. There is a level of fatalism and distrust of authority -- even their own -- inherent in that generation because of cultural & temporal influences. <SapphoWolf> It's a union of independents. <M_Belanger> It keeps shooting us in the foot. <Lono> It does seem that we have a tendency to focus on our differences, especially in the past, and we need to focus on our strengths and commonalities if the community is to continue and grow. <RavenHarte> I agree Khan and sarasvati. <M_Belanger> You know, some days these discussions we have remind me of what I read about the early United States -- before they were really States. <SapphoWolf> Maybe we need to look at a more balanced and equal playing field for the community and do away with things like elders... I don't know... <Anshar> lol @ the Articles of Confederation <RavenHarte> That’s why I prefer Collective to Community... <M_Belanger> Republic vs. a Federation, Democracy vs a Union of independent mini-nations... <Gabrielx> So my question is, as khan stated stop trying to make someone's views more right than another. Then how is it that we can sit and talk about individuals per media having a bad impact on the community. Wouldn't any impact just be their own personal diversity and we'd have to take up the position of live with it rather then a position of what are we going to do about it? <sarasvati> I think we have made a great effort to help people be self-reliant. Part of this, I think, is evidenced by the large number of "newbies" that drift through and the relatively small number of "regulars" the Regs stick around to help teach and support, while they encourage the "newbs" to learn, but to learn to take care of themselves, not be taken care of. <Merticus> Foundations are crucial to any kind of development. <Anshar> Merticus: What kind of foundations are you speaking of? Can you be more specific? <NyteMuse> Well, but the question is, CAN we focus on the basic points? I think it important to focus on additive definitions, rather than subtractive, which some sites and individuals seem to have a problem with. <Merticus> Primarily that of communicating as we are doing now in reference to Michelle's comment. We represent diverse viewpoints but are temporarily placing that aside... our differences if you will, to accomplish something... even if questioning ourselves is the only apparent outcome. <SapphoWolf> I think the individuals will grow and flourish in spite of the community... <Reija> I agree SapphoWolf <LadyCG> Good point Gabriel <M_Belanger> I've been working closely with a group of Pagans to try to see how they've handled these issues -- the Pagan community (as a social entity, not a religion) has already lived through much of the process we are currently debating for ourselves <Camazotz> True SapphoWolf… but they do need help. <Mike_Future> The biggest problem is defining "vampire". The way I see now, everyone has the rightful claim to the word as much as we do. <Reija> The community can't seem to agree which direction to take and where to begin, but a truly strong-minded individual will take bits from here and there and will thrive and grow. <Lono> lol... If we can’t define vampire..... <SapphoWolf> I've worked with Pagan groups as well... Michelle is right on <Gabrielx> Belanger: Any helpful findings in that? <RavenHarte> Exactly Michelle, it’s why I wanted to be part of this group. <M_Belanger> I know there are several others present here who have solid experience with the Pagan community. <Camazotz> Well if we can't define vampire, what say we move on with what we CAN do and see what comes out in the mix? <CrazeDS> We won't be able to. There are too many people, with too many definitions, all of whom disagree and clash. <Sovereign> Agrees with Craze <AcrophobicPixie> But Lono, we can't really define it as just one thing since there's so many types and views upon the word. <SapphoWolf> Cama: If you don't recognize your own vampirism in the first place, I doubt there's any community on earth that can help. <Mike_Future> I agree Cama <Lono> I agree Cama <M_Belanger> There's a lot to be learned from them -- if we can get over that knee-jerk reaction of "but we're NOT a religion!!!" <M_Belanger> But those clashes exist among Pagans as well. There's got to be a model from which we can work. <SapphoWolf> Most of the Pagans I know anymore don't view it as a religion anyway. <CrazeDS> Places like the ToV and the Vampire Church make that reaction understandable, even if it shouldn't be as harsh. <Camazotz> Agreed SapphoWolf, but I think people need to be shown more help than just articles - as useful as they can be as a starting point. I had help, I'm grateful for it. <M_Belanger> True enough. <RavenHarte> The Pagan community still has its clashes, for sure, still has its "I'm better than you." attitudes. <RavenHarte> We just learned that we weren’t getting anywhere resisting each other. <AcrophobicPixie> There's clashes within all religions, though, between the sects. <Mike_Future> My point was that the word has such a huge range of definition, we have to be more lax when it comes to lifestylers and the bunch. <Merticus> How lax do you propose we make such a definition? <M_Belanger> But we're at that phase right now that was, what 1996? The Witchvox, "Which Witch is Witch" debate. <NyteMuse> Yeah, and clashes even in the same tradition between traditionalists and progressives *snerk* <Anshar> Michelle: Wow! I remember that! <Reija> Sad that I remember that too. <RavenHarte> OOoh yeah the "Witch Wars" of the 90’s. <Anshar> An apt metaphor. <Vyrdolak> 1996! 1986! 1976! They're still arguing about it. <M_Belanger> Only for us it's "Lifestyler vs. Vampire vs. Vampyre vs. Sanguinarian vs Psi-vamp ..." ad nauseum. <Camazotz> Unless you're someone actively involved in teaching and you need to decide where you time is best spent, does it matter? <Sylvere> I disagree with being more lax with the lifestylers. <CrazeDS> But much like the word "Witch", "Vampire" means different things to each of us in this room. We accept ourselves, of course, but when we try and define ourselves to someone else, we get someone coming in with a different definition. <CrazeDS> and that's where the arguments and the bad blood (no pun intended) start. <LadyCG> Give me another month with the thread I have on Vampire Definition on my S&M DARK board… Maybe I'll have something worth bringing to the next meeting. <SapphoWolf> My parents were part of the Wiccamania of the 1970's...they were arguing over it then. <AncientKhan> I think the definition is: One who practices vampyrism, and let folks decide for themselves what the hell that means without us having to drive the short bus... <M_Belanger> Yeah, but there's been some abatement to it. So how'd they do it? Just apathy? <Camazotz> I know those I teach individually... their needs, what I can help them with... you can't take everyone as being the same, even if we HAD a clear cut definition. * NyteMuse shudders at the circular definition <Anshar> So maybe that's the root of it all, our prejudices. I'm sure most of us here have had issues with being mistaken for lifestylers by outsiders, depending on our self-representation. Any ideas on bridging that gap? <Vyrdolak> Attenuation, Michelle <Merticus> Well personally I think we are trying to be accepting by the inclusion of lifestylers or another else outside the "typical" sang/psi/hybrid etc. paradigm of vampires - are we discussing "who is a vampire" or "what constitutes vampirism" - they are two different questions. <Sylvere> Just say "no" to tautology. <M_Belanger> I usually default to "someone who, for one reason or another, identifies on a personal level with the figure of the vampire" -- which is more or less what Khan just said. <RavenHarte> I still tell people who ask me a vampyre is someone who cannot maintain energy balance and therefore must obtain this energy from other sources. <SapphoWolf> For me, a vampire understands the power of living energy and has learned to manipulate that energy to their own ends. I don't expect anyone else to adopt it. <Gabrielx> I find it amusing the biggest thing I run into with gatherings and events is if an individual feels left out or something isn't proper to them it's a huff and puff and "there aren't Real (insert otherkin/vampire/pagan here)”. <Gabrielx> I guess that goes back to a “pay attention to me” type mentality though. <Lono> My definition usually defaults to "need". <RavenHarte> Truth be told, most people don’t ask for more explanation than that unless they already know a sang or psi. <Camazotz> For me the basic definition is "need". <CrazeDS> I think Anshar, that lifestylers bring something important to the community, and while we shouldn't "run them out on the rails", they should acknowledge that they're lifestylers, and not actual vamps. <LadyCG> I agree with that Craze. <LadyCG> Besides, we can get donors from the lifestyler community. <NyteMuse> Y'know, I actually do SORT of include lifestylers when educating others about the community... I don't necessarily say "Oh yeah, these guys are vampires too", but it's hard to inclusively talk about the VC without at least mentioning them, as that's what many outsiders have been most exposed to. <LadyCG> *laughs* to me being a vampire has nothing to do with energy, being Sang. <SapphoWolf> I figure who am I to tell someone they are or are not a vampire? <M_Belanger> Though someone had raised the question, for that blanketing definition -- what then about the self-proclaimed vampires who murder? <Mike_Future> I agree SapphoWolf <SapphoWolf> What about the energy in the blood? <AncientKhan> Or the chemicals in the blood. Everything isn't about energy... <Mike_Future> We can distinguish ourselves, however. <M_Belanger> Well, there is point where some lifestylers end up adopting the vampire not just as fashion but also as a magickal identity. <Anshar> Gabriel: That's because for some people an interest in the occult is based on a "phase" that people go through in later adolescence where they want to veer away from the standards of their normal lifestyle. This causes a large influx of people into the Pagan/Vampire/and Otherkin communities that are there simply to be different. <CrazeDS> Michelle: They may be vampires, who knows. We certainly don't... but they're also criminals, and we should endeavor to show that we aren't them. That they are in the minority. <NyteMuse> I agree with Michelle... it seems like there isn't nearly as high an incidence in the pagan or homosexual communities of people claiming to be part of it and then bringing bad publicity. <M_Belanger> I agree wholeheartedly, Craze. <sarasvati> *chuckle* Way to be practical, CG... though I was thinking the same thing. <NyteMuse> The worst I hear about the Pagans is either media-spin, or Satanists, which many Pagans are quick to denounce. <SapphoWolf> There's an excellent case in point. From my point of view, there's nothing that isn't energy. <Mike_Future> I've seen it said numerous times that we use the V word because it is what most closely matches our "conditions". <Anshar> These people end up causing communication problems for the community and ultimately are partially responsible for some of the world at large taking us seriously. <Reija> As for Michelle's point about the self-proclaimed vampires who go around killing people... to me they seem to be sort of in that same group as the self-proclaimed messiahs who lead cults... SOME people believe them, MOST people think they're nuts, but they give a whole LOT of people a bad name. * NyteMuse agrees with Mike <CrazeDS> Mike: I once heard the word "pranist" from a vamp who refuses to use the word vampire because of all its associations. <Mike_Future> I've also heard that Craze. <Camazotz> Ultimately I don't like the term "vampire" purely because it forces us into having to define it to separate from the literary/mythological. * Lono agrees with Reija <NyteMuse> Interesting point, Reija... I have to wonder if some of the VC reactions to those people are unnecessary. <Merticus> Which does everyone care more about... how we are defined and perceived outside of the culture or how we define ourselves internally and come to know one another? <AcrophobicPixie> Craze, my brother used to do that. <SapphoWolf> Has there ever been a movement to adopt a word that isn't so loaded? <Sovereign> Agrees with Anshar <M_Belanger> To be fair, if you ask 80% of HK (House Kheperu), most refuse to use the V-word. <M_Belanger> The Warriors especially hate it. <M_Belanger> And leech is pretty demeaning. <M_Belanger> So is parasite. <NyteMuse> Yeah... and parasite covers it even less than vampires. <Anshar> The word "parasite" is only demeaning if you're self important. <Camazotz> Yeah, I used to be a moderator on pranism.net. <CrazeDS> Cama: It's actually Inky who I heard it from, LOL <Anshar> Mike: But, you have to agree that while the word "leech" might work equally well it doesn't have the sexy Hollywood veneer that many people crave. <NyteMuse> Cama, the same happened with "witch" but a lot of people use it. <LadyCG> I don't think people who claim to be vampires and kill are any different than someone who claims to be religious and kills. There are loonies in every group and every culture and religion. * Mike_Future agrees with Anshar <RavenHarte> Khan... LOL to me it’s ALL about energy, considering we are what 99.9% energy anyway right ;) Food = energy whether it’s a cheeseburger, blood or psi energy. <Lono> True RavenHarte... and life feeds on life... <sarasvati> There could be many ways to approach it... "Yes, there are some people who are/think they are vampires that commit violent, even homicidal crimes... not all of us are like that any more than all white people are like Jeffery Dahmer" <AncientKhan> I say screw the outside perspective until we unfuck ourselves. <Mike_Future> My point is, as long as we continue to use the V word, we will have to adapt to all that it attracts into this community. <Ravena_> The problem with inventing a word to describe it is that people would have issues communicating. <SapphoWolf> The Hopi Indians have a word for us... “powaqi”. <Gabrielx> Well here's a question these people going around killing others and proclaiming to be apart of our community... Again every community has psycho paths and some who are bad, but does that give us an immediate right to say "they aren't vampires" because they slaughtered 20 people or because they are crazy? Wouldn't it be more to the point of saying we don't condone these actions instead? <Gabrielx> Seems we always go to the "they AREN'T this" because they did something wrong. * Anshar nods to Gabriel <Anshar> Yea, they may very well be vampires, the point is that they're crazy also. <M_Belanger> I don't know if there is an answer for this debate, and it's taken us away from the initial question: In the absence of a cohesive definition, do we have the wherewithal to function as a whole & healthy community? <NyteMuse> Right, Gabriel. Which touches back on my earlier point. Additive distinctions instead of subtractive. <AcrophobicPixie> Agreed. There's no proof that they are or aren’t what they claim to be, Gabriel. <AncientKhan> We can function when we recognize the tie that binds us. <Anshar> Michelle: I think it's not the definition that's the problem. <Lono> True Mike, however many pagans know us as vampires, and some send un-awakened or newly awakened in our direction... if we changed the name, or attempted to, newbies wouldn’t know where to search. <Mike_Future> There’s no proof for any of this. <LadyCG> I think if we settle our own affairs in our communities without worrying about what the outside world sees, what the outside world sees will look after itself. <Camazotz> I think if egos and the "my way or the highway" attitudes of some can be put aside, then certainly we can. <SapphoWolf> The wherewithal is there, though it might be like pulling teeth to get to it. <NyteMuse> In my experience, a community really needs a common rallying point <CrazeDS> Michelle: Yes, we do. Most of the non-cohesiveness in the community comes from drama and rumors that are believed without being confirmed. <CrazeDS> If we can stop doing that, it's a start. <Anshar> Michelle: I think the definition is our mental band aid for the underlying problem. <NyteMuse> If it's not going to be the definition, maybe something else... <Merticus> Participation on the fringes of this community without association with the core of the community - the social interaction on message boards, groups, chats, etc. does not necessarily constitute those persons as being part of the "community". <Merticus> Everyone who identifies themselves or with the word "vampire" does not make them part of a "community" in and of itself. <M_Belanger> Or are we really predators at heart, and therefore more inclined to work together only when that cooperation functions expressly for our own benefit, always looking out for our own self-interests at heart and willing to abandon any semblance of communal interaction the moment it becomes inconvenient? <Gabrielx> Belanger: To that question, yes I think we can function. <SapphoWolf> Don't anyone take this the wrong way, but I feel that we have a healthy community right here. <M_Belanger> SapphoWolf -- how could that be taken the wrong way. Heck, it's even true. <AcrophobicPixie> Like the pack mentality? <Anshar> Michelle: that would be HUMAN nature, not just predatory nature, lol. <Mike_Future> Merticus, doesn't participation on our message boards make any and all part of the community? <NyteMuse> Merticus: Right, and not everyone who IDs as "pagan" is part of the Pagan community. <sarasvati> I think the initial question does go back to our prejudices... if in my research, I found something that disproved my favorite hypothesis and supported another persons, would I tell them? Even if I didn't agree? If we are to be that cohesive group, the answer would have to be yes. I may not like the result, but it is an answer, a result, and a step for the whole. <NyteMuse> Mike: I'd argue that. <Reija> Exactly, Merticus. That's like people who identify as being "Native American"... doesn't make them a tribe member. <CrazeDS> People, as a rule, look out for themselves first. Being people, we are, of course, not exempt. <AncientKhan> I think we're more a community in person. <LadyCG> NyteMuse... you're right about the rallying point... for example... if the governments of the World outlawed vampirism as a culture I bet we'd bond like crazy.. ALL of us. <Merticus> Yes, but whom among that list of individual "vampire" murderers do you personally know who have participated in such a manner? <Merticus> Who among us have committed crimes against our own or society that are an active part of our "community" - and I'm not referencing drama or hearsay? <Mike_Future> I think the major point is, anyone can claim to be part of the vamp community. We just have to work harder to distinguish ourselves. <Anshar> So, maybe there needs to be a distinction between self-identification and community. *shrugs* Still don't know if that solves the underlying problem. I still think that the "definition" is the issue that's masking the real issue. <AncientKhan> People distinguish themselves by action, not words. <sarasvati> Exactly, Khan. <SapphoWolf> Each of us is an ambassador of the community... something like that? <Anshar> Mike: Isn't that the attitude that causes such the ruckus in the first place? <AcrophobicPixie> Khan, sometimes action IS words, though. <Camazotz> We shouldn't forget the offline community as well. <Camazotz> Which is much more a "community" in many ways. <Lono> Same with a few people interviewed on TV, that can’t be found identifying with any other part of the community except for TV. <CrazeDS> If you want to be technical, one post on one board makes you part of a community. <AncientKhan> How are words action, if we can't follow up with an example, Pixie? <AcrophobicPixie> The act of saying them, writing them, etc. can be action at times. They can be a rallying point for others to look to. <Mike_Future> Anshar : If we want to have a more cohesive community, we need an identity. <M_Belanger> The rallying point idea is fairly crucial, I believe. What goals do we have in common, that we could be working toward as a community that can inspire us to cooperate? <SapphoWolf> Hey, I live with 30 other vampires... the offline community is quite healthy. <Merticus> Yes, often the offline community is far more entrenched than online. <CrazeDS> bah, I have nothing to do with the vamps in my area. <CrazeDS> Literally, NOTHING <LadyCG> Craze you live in NYC... It’s understandable. <Ravena_> Am I correct in assuming this whole conversation is to come up with a definition for vampire or some other word everyone agrees upon? <Sylvere> If we look to other "communities" we more closely resemble the BDSM "community"...i.e. there's no such thing. <M_Belanger> I don't see us banding together in order to start celebrating Vamp Pride Day any time soon. Or trying to lobby the government to allow ankhs (or whatever) on our tombstones... <Sylvere> There are people who are kinky, but there's no real community to speak of. <Camazotz> "The pen's mightier than the sword" Pixie? <AcrophobicPixie> *nod nod* Cama <Anshar> Ravena: The conversation is based on whether the self-identification and definition of vampirism is what's standing as a roadblock to our cohesiveness as a community. <Merticus> Ravena: No, not the original purpose is more can we as "vampires" function together. <NyteMuse> Actually, Sylvere's kind of right... there are local BDSM groups, but little to no global or online community aside from "You're kinky? Me too" <Ravena_> Do governments not allow ankhs? I'd say if you paid the company who makes the stones they don't care what you put on there. <Sylvere> And a large number of kinkster will argue that there is no BDSM community, never has been, and never will be. <Mike_Future> I think by educating newbies as to the reality of our conditions, we have been taking proper steps for cohesiveness. <AcrophobicPixie> Military graves don't allow them yet, Ravena. <AncientKhan> We've lost sight of why we're here, folks... <AncientKhan> We're here because we can talk to each other instead of anyone in the mainstream, because we understand ourselves better than they do. That's our tie that binds. <SapphoWolf> I think Khan is spot on there. * Anshar passes Khan the peace pipe. <Sylvere> I think that might be true of us as well. <Vyrdolak> The question with Wiccan symbols was military tombstones only. <M_Belanger> I don't know about that on the BDSM community, Sylvere -- there are so many conventions and classes and things, TNG groups, MUNCHES. <M_Belanger> There's cohesion there. <Sylvere> Oh, trust me Michelle, they exist. <Camazotz> What do people consider as "cohesion"? <sarasvati> I think, and I'll have to go back to the religion idea, but only as analogy.. .the definition is going to be very very hard... think of Christianity... Protestants, Catholics, Presbyterians, Episcopals, etc... each have a different definition, however each also identify as "Christian"... we each, in each of our groups, have a different definition as well. <sarasvati> But we all still consider ourselves vampires. <Mike_Future> Yes, we have strayed from the original question. <Sylvere> Go peruse the message boards on CollarMe. <Sylvere> And the TNGs, munches, etc. are *local* not really as widespread as we pretend the VC is. <Camazotz> pretend? <M_Belanger> But, most of my kinky friends are *on* CollarMe, it's a community resource, a place to meet one another. It's more organized than it looks. <M_Belanger> But you know that there's likely to be a MUNCH somewhere nearby or a TNG. That is my point. <Sylvere> I'll debate that with you Michelle and give you links to threads but I don't think this is the place for it. <Merticus> What are the benefits to the vampire community being cohesive in the first place... what does everyone stand to gain? <M_Belanger> A certain amount of mutual cooperation to host/create/run sites, events, resources. <Ravena_> I kind of think I have better things to worry about than whether or not they let me put an ankh on my grave. <RavenHarte> THAT is the real question Merticus. You CANNOT build a foundation of anything until you answer that. <Mike_Future> Ok, then I pose this question. How do we exclude the people who are tarnishing our image? <CrazeDS> Mike: We can't really. <Ravena_> We can't. <Anshar> Mike: Maybe the answer is we DON'T. <Mike_Future> Exactly <SapphoWolf> We shoot them down one at a time? <Vyrdolak> How do we exclude anyone when there is no formality to "including" anyone? <LadyCG> Merticus: I have kids and a grandchild who are vampires. I want to see cohesion because I want this to be a community THEY can be proud to say they belong to. I want them to have the support that I never had. <CrazeDS> There are always going to be people who go out and do bad things and make us look bad. <NyteMuse> I don't think we can exclude... all we can do is differentiate. <AncientKhan> By not giving them the attention they desire. Let's call a spade a spade. They want to be noticed. I say we don't give it to them. <M_Belanger> I think the best we can do is to make statements when appropriate. <Anshar> NyteMuse: Bingo. <CrazeDS> The only things we can really do is make a united showing of us not being them. * NyteMuse agrees with Khan <Mike_Future> Ok, at least we all agree on that. I think. <Merticus> It's not a matter of exclusion more than it is a matter of not choosing to acknowledge or play lip service to such individuals or foster our own boards/groups/etc. for such to thrive. <SapphoWolf> I agree. No more attention. <RavenHarte> No community has a "formal inclusion". <Mike_Future> Very good point Merticus. <CrazeDS> I half agree. I think it should be more selective attention. <Vyrdolak> But often our attention isn't what the problem people want. <Vyrdolak> and they're getting plenty of attention from elsewhere--what then? <CrazeDS> The more dangerous individuals should be warned against. <Reija> And the more fuss you raise about excluding someone, the more attention they get from it. <sarasvati> 1.) The biggest benefits are two fold: Support and knowledge... maybe three if we count research. An isolated group of one idea is not a sounding board for helping everyone that comes through. We have to know who is out there in order to direct "newbies" to the point of best support for that individual. <Reija> "i don't care what you say about me, just spell my name right" <Mike_Future> Sarasvati, I think we are doing that. <SapphoWolf> How can we determine who is a danger, then? Previous experience? <sarasvati> 2.) I'll echo what has already been said... we DON’T exclude them... they may be vamps as much as the next, but we can exclude their actions. <NyteMuse> On the topic of who not to give attention to... it seems to me that the people we see mostly in the news as being whackjobs (i.e. Jonathon Sharkey) would probably be better ignored. The only people I really see of merit as addressing is anyone trying to claim that "All vampires are/do/believe _______". <CrazeDS> SapphoWolf: Yes, and by watching and getting our information from what's publicly made available and can be verified. <NyteMuse> As was already said, communities have nutjobs... others will understand that. <Anshar> Maybe the point would be to create the stability and worry a LOT less about who to include and exclude. If we create a good launching point, people will find their way there. Just look at Sangi's site. <Anshar> She never made any effort to include or exclude. People just showed up. <Camazotz> Good point Anshar * Mike_Future agrees <SapphoWolf> Then that kind of a database if you will could be set up and maintained for the community's use? <Sylvere> Not true, Anshar. <sarasvati> Agreed, Mike, we are doing that :) <CrazeDS> But if you make drama, you get shown the door pretty fast. <Anshar> Sure, some are loony, some aren't. * NyteMuse nods <Gabrielx> Anshar: Then she banned them out of channel; *snickers* <Sylvere> When she (Sanguinarius) first started, she made an effort to exclude psi vamps. <CrazeDS> And that's how it SHOULD be. The drama is what tears us all apart and makes enemies of former friends. <Anshar> Sylvere: Didn't know that, but after that policy dissipated, it became a meeting ground, yes? <Anshar> The point is that if you create the environment, the creatures will populate it. <Merticus> In all our sites, in everything we post, say, allow to find its way on YouTube, to media outlets, in print, offline, online, etc. should not only be professional, but done so in the best interest of the community - put forth the examples you want others to know about the vampires. Be responsible and consistent. <Anshar> Maybe the focus should just be on creating the environment. <Sylvere> Anshar: After we finally managed to convince her that psi's are as much vampires as sangs, she changed her site to include us. <Anshar> and letting the DENIZENS of that environment sort out the hierarchy and communion <Sylvere> That took *years* though. <Camazotz> The only thing one can do is hope to lead by example... We can't force others to not put out crap, but we can try to balance with good info. <Anshar> Well, no one said this would be a fast process. <Lono> True <AncientKhan> *Agrees with Cama <CrazeDS> Sylvere: And now it’s reverse. Many places are convinced SANGS aren't the vamps. <sarasvati> Responsible and consistent... Yes! As individuals and close groups the consistency can definitely be achieved... a little harder on the global level, but that’s ok, I think. <Mike_Future> We are all good examples, that’s why we're all here right now. <SapphoWolf> Not if we do it well. <Merticus> Drama is accentuated when people choose to argue back and take matters into the public realm. Disputes should first be resolved over e-mail, a phone conversation, where often both sides will to concede a little to the other. <Sovereign> Agrees with Merticus <RavenHarte> I think if the problem is getting the "best face forward" for the vampyre community then those of you who have the knowledge and skills, have the resources just keep doing what you're doing in bigger and brighter ways. <Sylvere> Cama: True, but first we have to be willing to lead. <Sylvere> So far, we're not and we're mistrustful of anyone who tries. <Anshar> All I'm saying is that our effort might be better directed at creating a staging point, and letting the INDIVIDUALS who come to that staging point create their own structure. <NyteMuse> I also have to wonder just how many of the people posting videos or articles that are so limited or skewed did so because they were turned away by the community for being deluded or sang in a psi-only environment or something... and if they had just been welcomed in, they might have learned more before putting stuff out there? <Ravena_> Announcing that so and so isn't a real vamp or doesn't belong in the community just causes drama. I think time is better spent just taking steps to ensure that if anyone looks into us, they find us different than say... Sharkey. <RavenHarte> Overshadow the idiots by your own light. That’s how we deal with the Fiona Horne's in the Pagan community. <Mike_Future> The problem is, there are no facts. We often fight amongst ourselves over opinion. <CrazeDS> I think Sovereign’s having a hard time keeping up... <NyteMuse> heh...Yeah, does take a while to get used to the speed here. <Anshar> Mike: That's going to exist in ANY community. <AncientKhan> I'm having a hard time keeping up, and I'm not new... <Anshar> If we try to create some kind of utopia, we will fail. Outright. <Camazotz> Leading by example and appointing ourselves leaders are two different things... anyone can call themselves a leader, its when you find there are people around you even when you didn't ask for it that you're doing anything right. <Merticus> *** Ok, everyone take 30 seconds to breath and read up. *** <AcrophobicPixie> It's going fast, hence me being quietish. <LadyCG> Merticus: Not all of us can just phone another person. Some of us can't afford that kind of long distance bill, lol. International calling SUCKS. <CrazeDS> What Mike is saying, though, is that we need more facts, and less opinions to fight about. <M_Belanger> Fiona's pretty vapid. <RavenHarte> Exactly, and she made us all look ridiculous. Barbie on a broomstick. <RavenHarte> I can’t tell you how many interviews I did that year, GODDESS <M_Belanger> That, or she was damned tired at the Witch's Ball last Fall. <RavenHarte> NO, I think your evaluation of her is right on Michelle, LOL <AcrophobicPixie> I agree with RavenHarte. She's a bit of a twit <Sylvere> Ditto what Khan said... I'm still trying to catch up. <Mike_Future> Yes Craze, but we also need to be more tolerant. <Merticus> Skype - 2-3 cents per min. <NyteMuse> And Skype's free if you're calling other Skype users, not cellphones. <Anshar> CrazeDS: Religion exists without facts, and structure is possible in that community; structure =/= unity, however. <CrazeDS> I agree, Mike. And we need to "jump the gun" a little less. <Ravena_> Sanguinarius mentioned this one site, in beta, that will call people free and they don't have to have your phone #. <CrazeDS> Anshar: But we're not a religion. <Mike_Future> Not saying that we don't. But it’s an important part of remaining cohesive. <Anshar> Yup, just pointing out the parallel. <Sylvere> Fiona Horne...isn't she the witch that was on Mad Mad House? <NyteMuse> Sylvere, yes. * CrazeDS nods at Sylvere <sarasvati> We can't get more facts, though, without thorough research, and we can't get thorough research without working together. <Lono> Yes, but there’s is at least one common bond or commonality that is solid within a religious community that is agreed upon... the problem is finding that commonality and focusing on that, and building upon it. <Anshar> Alright, so let me ask this... would our ultimate purpose of unifying the community be best served by simply making it easier for vamps to meet up and communicate with one another? <Gabrielx> I think honestly the drama is what binds us or a very large piece of it. *shrugs* <Merticus> Also, most of us have each other's phone numbers... least I know many of you are in my phone in case I needed to get in touch over something. Communication (on any medium) in real-time is crucial sometimes to getting things right... be glad we don't have to wait for newsgroup or e-mail responses anymore. <Anshar> Maybe the social hierarchy, the drama, inclusion, exclusion, maybe it's all irrelevant if it's left to the individual... <Gabrielx> Many just don't want to own up to it. <Sylvere> Anshar: Not really. <M_Belanger> Well, I think one question would be: What are our goals in unifying the community? What are our goals as a community, period? <SapphoWolf> Wouldn't the ultimate purpose be for the members of the community to know they're not alone? <Reija> The drama becomes a rallying point, lol <LadyCG> Gabriel you could be right about that. <NyteMuse> I don't know if the drama does, but I see a lot of "Us vs. Them" rallying <CrazeDS> Gabriel: How? When we have unsubstantiated rumors that force people to pick sides, how does that bind us? When we have people being ostracized for being a particular person's friend, how does that bind us? <Sylvere> We've been communicating via the 'Net’ for over a decade. Where are we? S.S.D.D. <Gabrielx> We all want to get together work together have fun together but don't know how to go about it proper ways. <NyteMuse> Perpetuating the whole Eternal Outsider thing... <Mike_Future> Ok, I think the major point is: More education for newbs about the community, less attention to the eyesores. <Anshar> Michelle: Exactly; we have to make an assessment of what we're really trying to accomplish if we want the direction to get there. <Ravena_> People are always trying to get me not to like so and so for something or the other. <SapphoWolf> Let's face it... relatively speaking, we're few and far between. <Gabrielx> Craze: I didn't say all drama <AncientKhan> *Agrees with Gabriel <NyteMuse> Mike: Agreed, and I'd also add less subtractive definitions. <CrazeDS> But what I listed is what takes place in MOST drama. <Merticus> One goal in particular: Consolidation and keeping the accurate flow on information... there are so many forums and groups that are days, weeks, even months behind on news. At the VVC we have a listing of nearly 50 major forums that we can visit to make sure the information they are distributing or news is up to date... even if on the weekends in our spare time. <RavenHarte> I agree Mike, education first, social networking too I think. <NyteMuse> For those of us with sites or forums, less definition of what isn't a vamp and more of defining what is. <Mike_Future> On a similar note, I think the lot of us have done a fabulous job at doing that on the various boards. <Gabrielx> Craze: Drama's a double edged sword in my opinion. <Sovereign> Sadly, people need to learn basic people skills rather than relying on just me skills. <RavenHarte> The thing everyone needs to remember is you can’t police the World. There is ALWAYS going to be some horrific and erroneous new website, YouTube, whatever out there. <SapphoWolf> Well, when I get “Ask A Vampire” up and running y'all are welcome to come by and help shape it correctly. :) <AcrophobicPixie> NyteMuse, I've got the easy part on that, since I don't define it on my forum/site. <NyteMuse> Yeah... I apparently need to spend more time on Darkness Embraced (DE). <RavenHarte> We have TONS of them in the Pagan community. <NyteMuse> *snicker* Yes, Pixie, you're right about that. <Gabrielx> I think all of us sitting here tonight want to work together and substantiate that and network openly with our groups and areas. <CrazeDS> Gabriel: If the drama came with more confirmation and less mudslinging and idiocy, that would be fine, but it doesn't. <RavenHarte> You just have to combat that by making sure more of the good gets out there. <LadyCG> Are we still on question A? <M_Belanger> Yeah… <Merticus> Yes, soon to move on to B. <Gabrielx> But is it that that got us here or is it drama in the community that got us here to talk? *shrug* I could be wrong. <Merticus> Who else has not spoken to A that wishes to? <SapphoWolf> Do you think we would do well to have some information on group dynamics? <NyteMuse> Yes <Anshar> So, what if there was a vampire news page, something that compiles many different articles from different sources and offers forums for people to come and talk. No articles written by the people who run the site, no endorsement of any kind. A kind of "witchvox" for the vamp community or even something a little more withdrawn... I just can't wrap my mind around all the conflict. There has to be some path through all of it. <Anshar> Or perhaps I'm just thinking aloud. <Sovereign> Yes, about group dynamics. <Ravena_> Vamp wiki <M_Belanger> We need a vampire Witchvox.com <NyteMuse> I'm actually working on compiling some resources for the Kherete Project on group functioning and dynamics. <LadyCG> Anshar: We're working on that with SangSpace. <Anshar> Michelle: My point exactly. <Reija> That would be a great idea. <RavenHarte> Definately a VampVox would be something that would help. <AcrophobicPixie> A VampVox would be a good idea. <SapphoWolf> I ask cause I'm certified in mediation and group dynamics and I'd be happy to write something up. <Camazotz> Hard to say lol <Anshar> There you go, VampVox. <Mike_Future> Very interesting concept. <Merticus> Yes, we actually have a news page via the VVC public site - but a standalone inclusive site with RSS feeds such as Witchvox would be wider reaching. <Merticus> Something that we can update dynamically and is in part based on what we are already doing with communicating with each other. <RavenHarte> Most Pagans know Witchvox is a reliable source of info as well as diverse opinions. <NyteMuse> Been borrowing a lot from the Radical Faeries; they have some great resources on conflict resolution and consensus-based decision-making. <M_Belanger> But we need to get the vamps to stop worrying or fretting over whose knob gets to be polished by them hosting or running the site. <Camazotz> Sounds interesting as a thought Merticus. <Sovereign> SapphoWolf: That would be awesome, I think. <AcrophobicPixie> I don't know about it now, but in the 90's WitchVox was actually kind of fun. <Mike_Future> I don't have the time for it, so I'm out lol * SapphoWolf puts it on her to do list <M_Belanger> It's non-partisan, offers up to date news, lets people publish articles, list their groups, connect... <Anshar> Yea, all I'm saying is that a VampVox would help clarify and define things, allow people to communicate and compare... <AcrophobicPixie> You never know what new thing you'd find out about. <Ravena_> I've got my hands full with my own site lol <Anshar> And the bonus would be that there would be no hierarchy or inclusion/exclusion. <Mike_Future> Those that run it could be anonymous. <NyteMuse> Well, making Wikis is rather easy now. <LadyCG> Michelle... have you seen Sang/Psi Space? <Reija> I used to be all over Witchvox several years ago... it was one of my daily sites. <RavenHarte> Honestly Witchvox went up with few squeeks. If the site is diverse, doesn’t hold anything up higher than another people tend to leave it alone. <M_Belanger> But it would ABSOLUTELY have to be a separate entity from any house, group, order, etc. <Gabrielx> Belanger: I thought your radio feed was doing a good job on that. <M_Belanger> Shadowdance? Really? <Gabrielx> nods <M_Belanger> We're so bad at updating! <Gabrielx> nods <RavenHarte> But then you have to word of mouth it to death... people STILL tell me they've never heard of Witchvox, found me through my local website. <M_Belanger> And it's associated with me. Which, unfortunately, automatically makes it partisan. <AncientKhan> Why do we have to define everything for someone else? Isn't the point of learning to find your own answers? <Gabrielx> But you still got the attention of many... took questions in, even looked for not only yourself or your crew but others to answer the questions and had multiple individuals speak on their thoughts and opinions. <Anshar> Khan: Yea, that's why I was thinking an impartial site may be the best approach. <Camazotz> *Agrees with Khan* <Anshar> Khan: If we're trying to foster communication, that is. <Sovereign> Khan: It was for me. People become so lazy and seems they need to be spoon fed. <Mike_Future> Impartial is the way to go. Would make it legitimate. <Sylvere> Khan: What if the "answers" are so far out of sane that we appear a small speck on the distant shore? <Reija> Hell... Even a section on a 'vampvox' page where a whole lot of people get to answer the question "what is a vampire?"... just to get a wide array of answers and views out there. * NyteMuse agrees with Sovereign <Ravena_> So does a wiki-style site - users and visitors edit it. <Merticus> VampVox - A site by the vampire community for the vampire community - no sponsorships, no loyalties, no endorsements of one particular brand of "vampirism" - and I'm not talking "vampires" either. <NyteMuse> We have articles posted all over PV.org, and the same questions still get asked. <AncientKhan> what a vampire is should not be that much of a stretch... <Anshar> Merticus: Yup, that's the idea. <Camazotz> Well impartial is great... though someone will always think it isn't, but one can't worry about that or nothing happens. <Mike_Future> VampVox: Shut up and learn. <SapphoWolf> Er... so who would be flipping the bill? <Lono> True <Sovereign> Too many sheep and not enough free thinkers. * CrazeDS agrees with Sovereign <M_Belanger> I'd be willing to put money toward it. <Anshar> Sovereign: That would be the case no matter WHAT we were talking about lol. <SapphoWolf> So would I. <NyteMuse> Well... the only real bill would be hosting costs? We have enough pseudo web geeks to be able to do decent programming w/o having to hire someone. <Merticus> Not that I'm overjoyed with spending money; but I already do so as it is - easier to operate things when that isn't a mitigating factor. <AcrophobicPixie> If I get enough from Avon, I might be able to add some money to the pool. <NyteMuse> And hosting is cheap, relatively. <Lono> Which is also a comical point, when people are worried about dangerous "secret" information.. most of the people don’t even take the time to read the info that’s freely given to them. <Sovereign> LOL, I know. <RavenHarte> Witchvox has lots of articles and stuff but primarily it’s a networking site. A place where people can find others in their area; public and private. Covens or groves or just open circles etc. <AncientKhan> There must be 4,000 articles on what a vampire is, and that hasn't worked, or we'd stop hearing this stupid question. It’s something you need to define on your own, and bounce ideas with your contemporaries without being shiny, happy vamps. <Mike_Future> I'd throw a few bucks at it. <Sovereign> I can kick in. <RavenHarte> Doesn’t do a lot of spoon feeding because there is WAY too much info to have just one opinion, as it should be. <M_Belanger> So, I think the Witchvox model is something we should seriously study and strive to emulate for our community. <NyteMuse> I wish the service Cammey used was more reliable... she gets a good deal on packages, but the server goes down so often <Camazotz> *agrees* <CrazeDS> RavenHarte: I don't spoon feed either. I point someone in the right direction and let them go. <Ravena_> Then there'd be debate on what to include or not to include. <SapphoWolf> I'd host it except then it wouldn't be unpartisan :( <Ravena_> How do we make it truly unbiased. <NyteMuse> I can't be a primary designer, but I can help. <RavenHarte> I agree I think the community would benefit, but DEFINATELY would have to be independently run, and have diversity of location of contributors, opinions, etc. <Merticus> Let's take a quick vote.... as the VampVox proposal as it’s been laid out here tonight. Who among you are in favor. Vote: Yes or No <Mike_Future> yes <AcrophobicPixie> Aye <sarasvati> yes <Camazotz> yes <Reija> yes <LadyCG> I like it. <CrazeDS> yes <Anshar> Yes <Sovereign> yes <Merticus> Yes <AncientKhan> Aye. It's worth a try... <SapphoWolf> I think we can do even better, but yes. <Gabrielx> yes <Sylvere> Abstain until such time as questions of how to make it impartial and ensure quality content are answered. <M_Belanger> Isn't most of Witchvox's content user-driven? Edited by folks, sure, but mostly submitted by the visitors. <M_Belanger> I would even say anonymously run and funded. <Reija> I believe it is, and that's a good thing. * CrazeDS is a parent, a college student and a business owner...so may not be able to chip in monetarily. <Anshar> Yay! I finally had a good idea! *hides under a sheet so he doesn't screw it up* <RavenHarte> I don’t know if you could do anonymously run, because then people might suspect it WAS being run by one House or group or whatever. <Mike_Future> True <Merticus> Would VampVox be a possible infringement issue on the name of WitchVox? Also, is everyone happy with that name? Yes or No? <AcrophobicPixie> Well, choose someone not in a house/etc. to be the face of it. <Mike_Future> No <NyteMuse> Yeah new topic, later meeting? <M_Belanger> I don't think it would infringe. I suppose we could just ask them. <CrazeDS> You MIGHT run into legal trouble there. <Sylvere> Don't like the name, no. <Mike_Future> The name I'm not too happy with. <NyteMuse> Not big on the name. <Anshar> Vox simply means voice. <SapphoWolf> Yeah, I worry about that copyright thing, since what we'd be doing isn't a parody. <CrazeDS> They may think it's too close, but personally I'm disliking the name. <RavenHarte> I don’t think it would infringe either... there are other voxes out there. <AcrophobicPixie> We'd have to talk with them if we decided on that name. <CrazeDS> We should be at least SOMEWHAT original. <RavenHarte> The real name of Witchvox BTW is The Witches Voice. <Gabrielx> so with it being a wiki idea would there be a need for any legaleeze? <AncientKhan> Here's a thought: How about we make it for others besides just vampires, so we can get outside perspective, since this is going to be a Wiki/WitchVox template? <M_Belanger> VampireVoice <Sovereign> Not completely happy with it, but I have no suggestions. <Merticus> Yes, I agree... original is good. <RavenHarte> And trust me you want something people remember <Merticus> Ok then we can move that discussion to the forum and go from there. <Merticus> b. The vampire community has languished for years due in no small part to individuals who sought attention, albeit positive or negative for the satisfaction of themselves rather than for the benefit of the community (we’re not here to name anyone in particular). As leaders of the vampire community (the owners and operators of the major web sites, forums, groups, and discussion lists), how do you characterize your responsibility to <Merticus> this community without falling victim to narcissism, excessive ego, or a desire to achieve influence over others? How do you distinguish the community decisions you make <Merticus> as transcendent of mere personal aspirations while remaining cognizant of your own wants or needs? How important is the factor of respect by your fellow vampires to what you do and how you define yourself? <Sylvere> I don’t think it’s possible to be completely altruistic and simultaneously work for the good of the community. Some amount of narcissism and desire to influence others always plays a factor. However, a small amount of both is normal and doesn’t equal a personality disorder. Working for the greater good is, in and of itself, exerting a form of influence. Ergo, I don’t distinguish between the impulses in the way suggested by this. <Merticus> b. SphynxCatVP: My primary aspiration is to get decent information "out there" on the web for people to find. Whether I work with others or whether I'm forced to work alone due to lack of cohesiveness doesn't change my goals. I feel that what I'm doing is worth doing -enough- that I will continue, regardless of anything else that goes on (or doesn't) in the community. <Merticus> SphynxCatVP: I don't particularly care whether I have everybody's respect or not - I'm not here to stroke my own ego or grow a power base. I have enough RL irons in the fire; that I wouldn't have TIME for it anyway! <Vyrdolak> I don't agree that the vampire community's "languishing" has anything whatsoever to do with the behavior of any individual "leaders" or high-profile people. I think there are many reasons for the "languishing" effect, and most of them have their origins in mainstream cultural trends over which the vampire community itself has no control. <Vyrdolak> As far as my responsibility to the community, I don't think I have an excessive ego, I hope I'm not a narcissist, and I have no wish to achieve influence over others at all. I'm so uninterested in influencing other people, in fact, that when rational discourse fails, I just concede to futility and walk away. Any decisions I make in the interests of "the community" have nothing to do with my personal aspirations because "the community" has nothing to offer me toward those ends. I've long resigned myself to the fact that "my own wants and needs" will never be met, at all, and that's my lot in life. <Vyrdolak> "Respect from my fellow vampires" has exactly zero importance to me when it comes to "what I do and how I define myself" because I know I will never be respected, ever, by anyone, and I'm not wasting energy chasing after that. I just feel that existence in general on this planet would be enhanced to an unimaginable degree if people would be reasonable and aim for harmony instead of conflict. I try to model that, and I try to encourage that (short of getting preachy), and that's all I can do. I expect no personal recognition or rewards from the vampire community at all. That's not why I'm here. <LadyCG> You know… it’s HARD being a leader. No matter how hard you work or how hard you try you can never please everyone all the time. I think you NEED to have a certain amount of ego to do this or you simply won't survive the brutal ways even good leaders get treated. I've always been too thin skinned for this myself and I've been really crushed a few times by criticism, deserved or not (depending on whom you talk to) I've been lied to and about. <LadyCG> When do we start cutting ourselves and each other some slack, is a better question, as opposed to constantly have our motives questioned by ourselves and each other and the community in general? - Just wondering... <Camazotz> I disagree with that Sylvere… I don't think everyone is narcissistic IMHO. <Sovereign> Agrees with Sylvere <CrazeDS> Anyone who knows me knows I don't give a rats tail about whether or not someone respects me or likes me. I say what I say and if you don't like it, tough tits. <Anshar> Don't really have any "fans" so I think I can skip out on this question hehe. <M_Belanger> ::applauds CG:: <SapphoWolf> It's simple. I seem to be here as a leader and not a ruler, a servant to individuals and community, and to be both a mentor and a student. <NyteMuse> I have enough Leo in my chart to say I'd be lying if I didn't get some small pleasure from some of the accolades... but in general, I don't think I have too much of an ego thing going. I'm still relatively unknown so I haven't attracted too much attention in the larger sense. I've been called in this life to teach, so that's what I'm going to keep doing, whether people like it or not. <M_Belanger> <-- obviously someone to whom the question is pertinent <Ravena_> I just want to get info out there, I couldn't care less if I'm "popular". <Lono> I would have to say I try to temper my responsibility with humility, and more importantly humor… sometimes even at my own expense; I’ve always tried to make myself available and within reach of all the members of my forum. Respect, narcissism…...a fruitbat cares not for such things. <Merticus> I made a conscious decision a long time ago to step back and evaluate the reasons why I choose to be involved in this community. The decisions I make and the projects I undertake aren’t derived from a need to satisfy my desire to be respected by others, to achieve recognition or fame, or to change the face of modern vampirism. I take part in the things I do because I enjoy being here and communicating with many in this community <Merticus> and believe in the importance of the research we’ve undertaken with the study. <Anshar> Don't worry 'Ena, you're not. We burn effigies! <AcrophobicPixie> I'm still new to this, so I don't think there's much ego stroking coming my way. I just do what I do so that other's aren't as confused as I was when I got tossed into this pool to sink or swim <Camazotz> It's appreciated Merticus. <SapphoWolf> I would prefer to have earned respect, as respect begets good relations, and good relations make a stronger community. <Merticus> Everyone basically needs to step back and ask themselves if they are here for the right reasons. <CrazeDS> If I'm liked, fine. If I'm respected, fine. But I've gone without both, recently, and I found that I really didn't care. <Sovereign> Totally agree with SapphoWolf. <AncientKhan> Being popular is not a choice. Why we do this is to get a message out that's more important than our names, so those who follow in our footsteps don't have to deal with what we do now. <sarasvati> Quick answer: I look for answers to questions I have with the idea that if I have them, likely others do as well. <Mike_Future> My biggest thing is this is tied into our health. I am a health conscious person and it’s important to me to educate people in the community in that fashion. <M_Belanger> I actually had to tackle some of this issue with HK as well. When my books started to sell and I started to get a lot more media exposure, the Kheprians wanted to make certain that people did not confuse any of my public statements as statements coming from the head of HK. They wanted a clear break between "Michelle the author" and "Michelle HK's Founder". <M_Belanger> I have found myself doing that same thing with the vamp community recently, since I've been doing more work within the paranormal community now. <SapphoWolf> You can have all the drive and ego you can handle, so long as you can control it to the point where you're not stepping into another's space, if that makes any sense. <NyteMuse> There are some schools of thought that suggest it's the unpopular ones who are doing the most good in certain instances, because it forces people outside of their comfort zones to examine things they might need but not otherwise have looked at. <sarasvati> I don't ask to be popular, I don't ask to be a leader... seemingly just doing what I do has lead me here... to be honest, I've always been a bit shocked to be considered a leader enough to be invited here being far more an individual then community leader. <RavenHarte> I definitely didn’t come to the community for ego stroking. I was shunned by my community when it first got out I was "communing with vamps" and I was a nobody here... just the opinionated little witch, LOL. <Lono> AS individual members ask me questions, I find; that I am constantly re-defining what I know, and my knowledge becomes more fluidic..."true knowledge comes from knowing that you know nothing"...dude <AncientKhan> "The meek shall inherit the earth" philosophy doesn't work.... <SapphoWolf> The health question concerns me too. I've been to too many funerals. <CrazeDS> No, Khan, it doesn't. <Ravena_> Most of my articles are linked with health. * Mike_Future agreed with Lono <Anshar> I came here to help. Pride was a factor, but I wanted to take pride in MYSELF, not absorb the flagellations of others. <Gabrielx> Agreeing with SapphoWolf as well. Earned respect also opens avenues of helping one another in times of need or throwing things around in a forum to get feedback on ideas without fear of too much ridicule from peers. Popularity isn't a big deal for most of us I think but it helps get our opinions and idea's out. <CrazeDS> I think most of Sphynx's articles are linked with health as well. <Merticus> Life is too short to not make genuine friends along the way and not forget those who have suffered because they either have or haven’t spoken with others about what they are going through - past or present. <Mike_Future> I came to the online community to help myself. I think we all need to remember that is how most of us started out. <AcrophobicPixie> Most of ours involve health. We're just lucky to have a nurse on staff. <RavenHarte> AMEN Merticus! <NyteMuse> And yet, on the other hoof, how many of the older or more experienced members of the community have gotten tired of the boards because they get more abuse than appreciation? <Sovereign> A freaking men, Merticus <SapphoWolf> I didn't seize leadership. I was elected. And then it was my task to be equal to what people were hoping I could do. <LadyCG> It’s true NyteMuse. * Lono agrees with NyteMuse <Ravena_> I find that appreciation is not always forthcoming - I wouldn't hold my breath for it. <Mike_Future> I've only been around the OVC since '02 and I have seen big changes with message boards. <NyteMuse> Hell, a lot of the saner people on HK just stopped posting when it got overrun with taters. <Anshar> LH is a group of equals too, so the leadership thing is more of an honorary title and a coordinator position than it is a trump card. <Anshar> Ask Gabriel it's nothing but hassle. <Gabrielx> Anshar: lol Yes it can be. <M_Belanger> I ended up here because I wanted to learn about the experiences of others and to compare those experiences with my own, to see what I could do differently to manage my needs. A secondary mission then became an attempt to promote knowledge and information sharing so that others would not have to search or struggle quite as hard as I did. <Merticus> One is a leader by the merit of their actions in the community, no bestowed title or years counted for just "showing up". <RavenHarte> I did too Mike, it was all about ME, then I felt a loyalty to those who helped me grow and learn and I come to the live VC for them, to support what THEY wanted * Mike_Future totally agrees with RavenHarte <M_Belanger> Hell, NyteMuse -- I can't bring myself to post on my own boards. <Mike_Future> I feel an obligation now, not in a bad way. <RavenHarte> I have stayed because I have learned so much from all of you that I want to see it continue so others could enjoy what I have <NyteMuse> Oh, except when I call the fun ones to your attention :) <M_Belanger> And when I do, it's two inches away from me flaming some twit for being an asshat. <RavenHarte> ROLFMAO Sylvere... man I remember those days <Mike_Future> I really want to see this community evolve. <Sovereign> I do too, Mike. <Anshar> Mike: Into what? <SapphoWolf> The house wanted me to take a formal title. I didn't want to, but eventually I suggested Mother, because that's kind of my role. So we agreed on Matriarch. <Sovereign> I see so much potential. * CrazeDS nods <Mike_Future> What I really want is for it to be taken seriously. <NyteMuse> This goes back to that point made earlier about tolerance for diversity going too far... when someone shows up on a board thinking he's a zombie and no one wants to correct him. <LadyCG> The community WILL evolve, the only constant being change. the question becomes what direction do we want it to evolve IN. <Vyrdolak> And is that even controllable, CG? <Merticus> I really want to meet all of you face to face over coffee or some other delectable beverage and see what makes you tick. <M_Belanger> I'd love to see some intelligent questions, not belligerent "I can teach your system to you better" posts or infiltrators from other systems who seem to have an inflated sense of how important we are -- infiltrating us and all. I mean, seriously. It's a message board. What are you possibly gaining by "infiltrating" it?!? <RavenHarte> I think there are ways to keep the ridiculousness down without traumatizing the entire group though <Sovereign> First we must take ourselves seriously, and strive to do instead of just talk about doing. <Anshar> Mike: The pagans aren't taken "seriously" by the community at large if you're using them as a model, there's just less infighting and a little more unity. <Sylvere> But that goes back to community-wide definition and we aren't willing to do that. <RavenHarte> Tolerance for individuality is a MUST or it doesn’t work <LadyCG> I think we can guide it Vyrdolak, we probably can't control it. <RavenHarte> Tolerance for ridiculousness is NOT a must. <RavenHarte> Yes Sovereign. Its as Phyllis Currott taught me years ago... you must Walk your Talk. <Sovereign> Maybe that's the way to get vampvox <Ancient Khan> I don't care who takes us seriously but we need to be respected for our potential to do good, than be penalized for the fruitcakes who make us look like angsty teens. <SapphoWolf> Look at the crap that IS taken seriously anymore... <CrazeDS> Be tolerant of people, not idiocy. There can be NO tolerance for drama and unsubstantiated rumors. <M_Belanger> And if, gods forbid, you make clear definitions on a message board and exclude someone who is posting about, let's say, creating life in a petri dish through a mixture of suet and his own blood -- you get called elitist, and all other kinds of bull. <NyteMuse> Syl: Ah yes, on the board...that was funny <Mike_Future> lol @ Michelle, too true. <SapphoWolf> Hey, I gave a little talk explaining vampirism through quantum physics... you can imagine how that went down... <CrazeDS> Like a lead balloon? <M_Belanger> There's being open-minded, and then there's enabling delusions. <Gabrielx> SapphoWolf: Were in chat maybe? <SapphoWolf> No, Temple University <RavenHarte> *Nods at Michelle* * NyteMuse agrees with Michelle <Camazotz> SapphoWolf: I would LOVE to read that if you have a hard copy. * Sylvere agrees with Michelle too <Sovereign> True that, Michelle <Merticus> Here's a side question to the one we're discussing... do you ever feel disconnected to the members on your boards, groups, etc. And if so, why does this gap exist and do you think they feel the same way? <NyteMuse> More so than with local groups, yes <Mike_Future> There's a huge disconnect with some members. Indeed <NyteMuse> I really wonder at times what their motivation is in joining these boards. <Mike_Future> Indeed <Gabrielx> Merticus: I think it depends on avenues of life. Everyone’s life is always changing some have to go to work more often then others depending on where at in there life and that can cause gaps along with medical issues and just a slew. <Gabrielx> So I'd say yes. <Sylvere> I'm very disconnected right now because I don't have time for my e-group. I have to make my studies a priority. <NyteMuse> It's easier to tell when you meet someone in person why they're there, or what they're hoping to get. <RavenHarte> My boards are dominated by Pagans not vamps but I don’t feel a disconnect because I make efforts to post topics that allow them to share themselves. <Mike_Future> I understand for some it’s a passing phase. <M_Belanger> I feel I cannot even relate to half of the people on those boards. I now understand why so many older vamps don't participate in the community past a certain point. The age gap is palpable and growing. <Gabrielx> I'd also say it’s about life. <SapphoWolf> I wonder if they really think I truly do nothing else. <CrazeDS> I didn't used to feel disconnected with the people on S&M... but since I went back, I have to say I do. But that's more for personal reasons. <NyteMuse> Oh gods... I'm not even old and I feel ancient on the boards. <M_Belanger> When language devolves to “TEH ROXXOR OMG WTFBBQ!!!” I can keep up, but I feel my IQ dropping. <NyteMuse> All the teenagers... <Mike_Future> VCMB became a playground earlier this year. <M_Belanger> And I want to help them and communicate, but I'm not even sure we speak the same language. <Ravena_> I still have not figured out the VCMB, so I gave up. Some sort of bizarre group system. <Lono> lmao Michelle... welcome to my world. <SapphoWolf> "I think I'm a vampire because I like blood and nighttime." <RavenHarte> Definitely, THAT makes me nuts on some boards I am on but my own boards prohibit that. <NyteMuse> Lono's got a point, Michelle... it's much worse on the PsychicVampire (PV) site. <Mike_Future> It works for us, keeps trolls at a minimum. * NyteMuse shudders <SapphoWolf> There's a guy on Facebook who "thinks" he's Count Dracula. <Anshar> SapphoWolf: That's like saying "I think I'm a Christian because I like perpendicular lines, wine, and guilt." <Lono> We gotta crack down on that. <Merticus> Do you worry that such disconnect could lead to what some of us have to say and what we write as falling on deaf ears or not receiving the consideration it would have if we actively communicated and befriended many of those on our forums, etc.? Is there a danger in this down the road? <LadyCG> Michelle when I started having that problem on S&M I turned it over to Craze as my second, and a lot younger than I am, and I went to my more private board DARK where I have more folks I totally relate to closer to my own age group. <NyteMuse> I think you make a good point, Merticus. <Ravena_> Merticus, do we have to be everyone's friend? That’s tiresome. <Merticus> Of course not, but do we run the risk of becoming irrelevant by virtue of not being as active as we once were... as members of the community take on more responsibility, family, lives, etc. Are others coming in behind us at a fast enough rate to replace the logical, sane, and supportive voices? <NyteMuse> Merticus: No. The rate is not constant, imo <Reija> 15 years ago when I/we were just starting out, there weren't all that many "older" vamps in the community to help and talk to... now that I'm one of the "old folks", I can't help but look at these kids and recoil in horror... were we really THAT bad or is it just that we were smarter to begin with? <Mike_Future> I think vampire health is overlooked in many portions of the OVC. <RavenHarte> For me I've stayed on boards where I am clearly the "senior citizen" because I know there were people who needed me, who were listening. THAT makes the difference. <Vyrdolak> Works two ways, Merticus -- talking at people who ignore you doesn't help much. <NyteMuse> I've taught in large groups and I've taught in small groups. Even if I wasn't "friends" with smaller groups, I feel like more of my lessons got through because there was a more personal connection. <M_Belanger> On one hand, I have to be -- or I have to stay silent. Nothing earns resentment quite so much as a celebrity appearing to dis their fans. <RavenHarte> For me if I can reach 5 our of 50 and help them walk their path a little straighter, its worth it. <M_Belanger> And somewhere along the line, some folks decided I was a "celebrity". <NyteMuse> Our boards are huge, we obviously don't have time to PM or friend EVERYONE, but maybe taking a few minutes to pick out a person at random who might be a bit on the deluded side and contact them privately might help. <Sylvere> I think we were less influenced by the rampant idiocy on the boards today because we were the ones to define the community. <AncientKhan> Can I have your autograph, Ms. Belanger? You're so dreamy.... <Ravena_> I'm not a warm and fuzzy sort - I put out the info and if they don't listen and something bad happens... it's their own fault. <Anshar> Michelle: I'd hope your fans are fans of self-exploration and the pursuit of knowledge. Then you don't have to worry about offering your opinion. *sighs* sometimes a reality like that only seems like a daydream. <M_Belanger> I have to answer even the craziest pieces of fan mail nicely -- or ignore them. And ignoring them gets people pretty pissed as well. <Camazotz> On the boards... hmm, so many people come and go. For me, what's left becomes like family... with the ups and downs that brings. <M_Belanger> Is it me or has the quality of people on the boards degraded? <RavenHarte> Oooh yeah Michelle I can see where that can be a problem for you. <Sylvere> Now so many n00bs want to jump on our bandwagon but they want to add all kinds of dumb shit that we never thought of. <M_Belanger> Or am I really just getting that old and that tired that quickly? <NyteMuse> I've found in dealing with teenagers especially, that if you confront them privately, it's easier to reach common ground. Calling them out in public often leads to fronting. <Sylvere> Happened to the Otherkin community almost 10 years ago. <LadyCG> I know I am Michelle, lol. <Anshar> Michelle: Maybe your standards have just gone up. (not a bad thing) <AncientKhan> Statler and Waldorf! <Vyrdolak> Nah, Michelle, you're just a baby still. <M_Belanger> Anshar: Fair <Mike_Future> Randomness takes over, lol. <Anshar> The more you know, the less you like ignorance. <M_Belanger> I'd like to think so. Though I did find my first gray hair. ::ducks:: <Ravena_> I don't have time to keep up with all the boards personally. I have a few grey streaks :( <Camazotz> Only first???? Lucky you. <LadyCG> Oh geeze Michelle... just one? <Anshar> Wow, I had them at 15 lol. * Sylvere snorts... I've had grey for 10 years but they just fall out <Camazotz> 18 for me… but that's thyroid. <AncientKhan> No gray, but the hairline is receding from pulling it out so much... <Sovereign> I started going gray at 18, 32 now. <Merticus> c. The following question involves a project the VVC is considering regarding the translation of important vampirism / vampire community written or printed materials into languages other than English. If you had to choose a handful (5 or so) documents, articles, or other bodies of work that represent the fundamental ideals of the vampire community to translate into foreign languages (French, Spanish, German, Russian, etc.), which would <Merticus> these be and why? Aside from translations, what steps are you personally taking to reach out to vampires in other countries and what additional measures could be explored by the community as a whole? <Mike_Future> I originated the idea for the international sections on the VCMB. While still unfinished, I feel it is unique in the community. It serves as sort of a directory for vampires and donors from all over the world. It is still in its working stages but it has potential to be an important addition to the community. <NyteMuse> I'm going to beat AcrophobicPixie to this one. Donor Bill of Rights <RavenHarte> Yes, agrees with NyteMuse. <Sylvere> I’d like to see the RVCA’s Safer Bloodletting Guide (I have yet to see another one as comprehensive as ours), the Donor’s Bill of Rights, a history of the community similar to what’s in The Psychic Vampire Codex, and FAQ that includes “fiction/folklore vs. reality” section translated into other languages. At this time, I’m not actively reaching out to vamps in other countries. However, the RVCA has always welcomed vampires, donors. <Camazotz> Well I think lots of you folks here have written amazing articles- my question which of those would be available to use for something like this? <AcrophobicPixie> sorry, having pc issues, so I'm slow on the draw tonight <Anshar> My opinion is that when you choose what to and what not to translate, this becomes a conversation solely about elitism, scrutiny, and exclusionism. The whole point of the VC is to promote different ideas. I don't think this is in our realm. Let someone else decide. <Ravena_> My husband could probably translate my articles to Spanish... <M_Belanger> Excerpts of the following: Raven Kaldera's vamp book, CG's book, my Psychic Vampire Codex as far as books go. <LadyCG> I honestly don't know which articles etc I'd choose, there are so many good ones. We need to nominate a handful or get nominations from the community and take a vote on it, or ask members of the community to help with translating. <LadyCG> Personally I'm working on a Global Contact list that will put those of us who offer LIVE services to our kind. There are many of us who offer sanctuary, mentoring, houses and meets in the real life environment. I think its important we network those of us who do, so we can work to get vampires in need the info they need or even have the capability to move someone from one community to another if for example we had a battered wife or other emergency. <LadyCG> As vampires I think it’s critical that we can depend on each other in crisis. <Camazotz> I'd love to see the Psychic Vampire Codex translated, definitely. <Reija> i would say don't decide *what* to translate, rather... what to translate FIRST... which things are the most commonly accepted as "essential reading" and go from there. <AcrophobicPixie> A good portion of what's in our Donor 101 section should be translated. <Sylvere> Anshar: As I understood it, it was getting a few of the top things translated ASAP and then work on the rest as time allows. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm mistaken. <LadyCG> Anyone who wants to use anything from my articles or book is welcome to them. <Merticus> As some of you may have noticed I updated the links today to include German, Spanish, and Russian related vampire community sites. <NyteMuse> Weren't we going to put together a list of vamp or vamp-friendly professionals for consultation, like in legal matters? <Camazotz> Mike, you know some of your articles are on Sanguinox (NOX) - they've been very useful and would love to include those... same with CG. <Anshar> Sylvere: Thanks for clarifying, was confused. <RavenHarte> Well, and speaking of translations, are there works out there in other languages that we should be looking at for U.S.? <Mike_Future> That would be great, Camazotz. <Merticus> There is a demand for documents (however they are to be decided upon) to be translated in other languages. Good point RavenHarte. <M_Belanger> Well, "Vampires in Their Own Words" automatically had a Spanish translation. <LadyCG> I still own the copyright on all my stuff so it’s here for the asking. <M_Belanger> As I found out from requests to interview me from Mexico and ... Peru? I think it was Peru. <NyteMuse> I'd honestly like to see more e-versions of things. Lulu kicks arse. <Merticus> Copyrights, who gives permission for translation, and the mechanics can be worked out down the road... as long as the sincere interest is there to pursue this. <Merticus> Last week I met with a representative from the Russian vampire "community" who conveyed to me that literature in Russian on real vampirism is virtually non-existent. <Camazotz> Where would they be hosted Merticus? On VVC public, or elsewhere? <Merticus> They would be public domain as long as the author agreed, otherwise hosted where the respective author grants permission. VVC or otherwise. <NyteMuse> And some programs can translate e-documents into native languages with little difficulty. <AcrophobicPixie> I'll talk to my friend about French and Japanese translations after he gets back from his honeymoon. <Mike_Future> We should have a thread where we can link to articles and such for possible inclusion. <Lono> I'd love to do a Japanese translation of my site. <M_Belanger> I got an idea ... how about everyone here write three essays: 1.) What Makes a Vampire 2.) How Vampires Feed 3.) Ethical Vampirism Each from their own experience & point of view, and we all collect it into a Lulu book? <NyteMuse> Hm….not a bad idea. <Anshar> Michelle: Seconded! <AcrophobicPixie> Can I do mine on donors instead, Michelle? <Mike_Future> Oh boy, with all my herpetology papers... <M_Belanger> From emails I've gotten, I know there are people out there in other countries who have been translating things for their groups. I get links to versions of the Codex, for example <Gabrielx> Michelle: Not a bad idea. <AncientKhan> I think it could be productive... <M_Belanger> Absoutely -- that view needs to be there, AcrophobicPixie <Anshar> Putting all that into one place focuses on diversity of opinion. <Anshar> I think it sends the right message, as well. <Merticus> Not a bad idea at all... especially given the range of views and representation we have here. <M_Belanger> I mean, consider who we have here -- and the diversity of those views. We could use it for a site, too, but why not a book. <RavenHarte> Oh I'm glad you asked that AcrophobicPixie. <Sylvere> Michelle: Can we get “Vampires In Their Own Words” translated into other languages? <M_Belanger> Not unless Llewellyn does it. <M_Belanger> Which is why, if we do another, although I appreciated the distribution on that title, we should probably do it through lulu just to retain the rights. <AcrophobicPixie> I have to keep us in mind, RavenHarte :) <M_Belanger> IMO we need more donors willing to speak up and talk their talk. <LadyCG> I'd be willing to contribute to a book, if we could use proceeds, if any, to pay for the site we want for vampvox. * AcrophobicPixie does the donor secret handshake with RavenHarte. <Camazotz> So... two ideas here then - translations and a book, or is the book what will be translated? <Merticus> Camazotz: The articles we write for such a publication could also be translated into multiple languages as well... less I missed reading that earlier. <M_Belanger> That would be my idea, Merticus. <M_Belanger> Kind of a vampire handbook; only written by everyone, to insure a wide variety of views and equal footing for all those views. <Merticus> I'll place the idea under VVC Projects for fine tuning and see how much interest across the board we have. <AcrophobicPixie> Michelle, I'll rally my people, see what we can do. <AncientKhan> Gee! I think I just saw some unity in the community without bickering... <Sylvere> We still own the rights to our own articles, so we should just be able to use what we've already contributed. Yes? <RavenHarte> And I agree with Michelle there need to be more donors make their voices heard. <Mike_Future> Pixie, you and your admins are doing such a wonderful thing. I thought I would tell you that. <AcrophobicPixie> RavenHarte: That's why Lady Slinky kicked my bootie into making Black Swan Haven (BSH). <AcrophobicPixie> We needed a place of our own in this little world. <Lono> I'd definitely be willing to write some feeding articles. <Gabrielx> Who's going to be doing the compiling? <M_Belanger> Well, I can, if no one else wants to. <M_Belanger> I've got both the editing & lay-out & design skills. <Merticus> We can collect the articles via the forum and work on translations with our own contacts from there - might be easier. <AcrophobicPixie> I'll talk to our nurse, see if we can't use her safety articles Merticus> Anything else anyone in particular is doing in their local groups, Houses, lives etc. to reach out to vampires outside the United States or Canada...? I know VVC has representatives from Ireland, Germany, Australia, Canada, etc. <Ravena_> I prefer to remain anonymous, so not doing anything in my local community, hell, I don't even know if there *is* a local community here. <Camazotz> For me, just the usual... working with those I can help in any way locally, trying to get meetups to happen etc. <Gabrielx> Were just doing or normal local gtg's and bbq's and working with some of the meetup groups out here. <AncientKhan> We have Canadians, Australians, and Europeans in Dark Nations (DN). <Reija> Ravena: There really truly ISN'T much of a local community in Halifax (Canada). Trust me; I looked when I lived there. <LadyCG> There is a community there in Halifax. Two of my coven moved there. Pixie & ShadowWalker are there now. <Ravena_> Yeah, I didn't think there was, except the Goth dude who wore fangs. <Sylvere> I don't support a lulu book. Not after working for a book publisher. <M_Belanger> Personally, I'd be inclined to compile it into any and every format we can once all the articles are collected -- PDF, eBook, whatever. <Sylvere> I can help with the editing and proofing. <M_Belanger> Thank gods, Sylvere. <Mike_Future> An actual book would be nice. <M_Belanger> If we wanted to pop the money, we could do BookSurge -- they're likely the only POD that Amazon's going to be carrying soon anyway. <AcrophobicPixie> Book would be good, same as ebook. <Merticus> Lulu supports online downloading of publications – PDF. <Ravena_> I can't write anything as a vampire - but I can help with the copy editing. <Sylvere> I don't know if I can get access to the typesetting program at school or not. <Vyrdolak> CreateSpace -- you need 10+ titles for Booksurge, I think. <RavenHarte> I'll do whatever I can, I'm am awesome worker bee *cheesy grin*. <Sylvere> Anyone got InDesign from Adobe? (Multiple Answers: Yes) <M_Belanger> Really? They keep bugging me to publish through them. <Sovereign> Agrees with RavenHarte -- me too. Delegate and I'll get it done. <M_Belanger> How about we go round robin with edits (once we get it) or even divide it up? <RavenHarte> I think round robin edits is a GREAT idea. <Sylvere> Round robin is the only way to go. That’s what we do at the publishing house. <Vyrdolak> I just went up on CreateSpace. <Camazotz> I don’t mind doing some proofing... I'm better than my typing implies. <Lono> Whoah... is this what cooperation feels like? *feels woozy* <AncientKhan> See, Lono, this was my point. We'll work together when someone isn't told they're wrong. <Anshar> Khan: You're wrong about that. :p <Camazotz> lmao @ Anshar <Merticus> Ok I'll set up a thread or sub-section actually for everything tomorrow if that is ok with Michelle and everyone else? That way we also can cross-check edit/translations of each other to ensure accuracy and save time in the end. <RavenHarte> *arm around Sovereign* Point us to the work. <M_Belanger> Sounds good. <M_Belanger> And if anyone wants to debate or modify those three topics, feel free, but I think they cover the most basic questions <LadyCG> ok with me Merticus <AncientKhan> Good <Mike_Future> ok <Camazotz> sounds good * NyteMuse nod <Sylvere> aye <AcrophobicPixie> good for me <Merticus> d. Everyone take a moment to share your opinion on a project the VVC has the opportunity to spearhead. There are many in this community who seek specific guidance for difficult situations or questions that may not always be answered via message boards or through the insight of one particular individual in an e-mail. Still other members would like the ability to be connected with others in the community in real-time or have at their disposal a collective resource for multiple viewpoints. <Merticus> To this end, on a trial basis let’s establish a bi-monthly online VVC hosted chat advertised to the major forums and groups of the community. At these chats, members will be able to ask their questions in a moderated format and request additional support if needed by e-mail or other means of follow-up. What are your thoughts or opinions on this concept? How should such be implemented? <Mike_Future> This could be an interesting project, but the agenda has to be well defined beforehand. In the past I have tried to organize classes and discussions in chat and it was very hard to keep on topic. Members should have maybe one or two questions lined up beforehand. <NyteMuse> Provided the times rotate to accommodate different time zones. I'm in favor. <LadyCG> I LOVE the chat idea and I'll even help with it. Put me on your go to list for that one Merticus, and I'll help in any way I can. <Anshar> A web-chat on the site might be a nice way to implement this. <Camazotz> Love the idea, though time zones might be an issue for me on occasion. <AcrophobicPixie> I'm on IRC all the time, but *shrugs* <Vyrdolak> Seems like a good idea in theory, anyway. <Sylvere> I'm all for chat sessions. <NyteMuse> Most of the free chat applets suck, though. Jirc would be nice, if we could afford it. <RavenHarte> OK I wondered about this, do you mean a chat like this one open to public? <Merticus> No, hopefully something other than IRC. Personally I have no problem with IRC but others sometimes find the process to connect convoluted. <M_Belanger> When I have time and am home, this is a great idea. <Sovereign> I’m down with the chat. <Merticus> RavenHarte: Yes, a community public chat. <Anshar> Following the web chat link with some popular vamp site channel links for when the web chat isn't up could also be a nice idea. <LadyCG> I already have a GREAT jirc program on my website we can use. <AncientKhan> Up with chat. Down on IRC. <Anshar> LadyCG: Great! <Merticus> I would be willing to support these chats on a trial basis and suggest they be hosted at alternating times and possibly on multiple different platforms to allow the maximum number of participants. Different members from the VVC could take turns hosting these chats and as the software/interface provides would act as moderators. <Mike_Future> It's a great idea. There will be people lining up to talk to us. <NyteMuse> Please gods, not chatango. <Merticus> I’ve attended chats in other communities where the questions are posted in a queue and answered in order with the option to control the ability of those to discuss openly; essentially taking turns until everyone has had the opportunity to make their statements, comments, etc. <Sylvere> Java chat is evil. <Anshar> Merticus: Sounds like a great implementation. <Anshar> Can't wait to see how it works in practice. <LadyCG> I have a great jirc full paid version we can use already on my website. <Merticus> Yes Java and YIM are also problematic so we'd have to research the best alternatives. <Sovereign> Hell no to chatsy. <NyteMuse> I must be in the minority...I actually like IRC :p <Sylvere> I like IRC and YIM. <Gabrielx> the only issue with IRC is sometimes connections suck depending on chosen server and every now and then there's a net split. <NyteMuse> Gabriel: True, but comparatively, I think IRC is a better option. <Merticus> Ok quick vote. All in favor of on a trial basis testing this open community chat program? Vote: Yes or No <Anshar> Merticus: Sounds like we're widely in favor of it, any other stipulations or questions on the topic? Does it require a vote? <Sylvere> Yes <NyteMuse> Yes <Anshar> Yes. <Camazotz> yes <Lono> yes <Reija> yes <Mike_Future> yes <Ravena_> yes <Merticus> Yes <LadyCG> yes <Gabrielx> yes <RavenHarte> Well if someone writes out how to get to it then I'll give it a shot. <Sovereign> yes <Vyrdolak> yes <Merticus> e. Other topics you’d like to bring up for discussion? <NyteMuse> Hm... Do we want to try addressing the outsurge to Dominae Drakonis’ blog and appearance on History Channel’s MonsterQuest, or is that being handled enough elsewhere? <AncientKhan> *Pauses for others to intro new topics. I have nothing I can add. <Mike_Future> I think the issue of minors in our community and the possible legal issues is something that needs to be addressed. <LadyCG> Mike I've had minors on my boards for years. It’s never been an issue. <NyteMuse> Yeah...we're trying to discuss the issue of minors on the Kherete boards and it's going slowly. <LadyCG> NyteMuse: Are you folks having issues with minors? <NyteMuse> Not real issues, just debating what parts we want them exposed to. <NyteMuse> Like the regional networking and can we get our butts sued for letting minors and adults interact and meet offline, etc <LadyCG> On S&M we only kept minors out of the adult forums beyond that ... <Ravena_> We don't let minors do anything. <Ravena_> The minors make their own decisions and the parents simply are not watching them while on the computer. <Ravena_> The problem with minors is the predatory adults you find anywhere you find kids. <Anshar> Merticus: Maybe we make a web based trivia game on vampirism :D it would encourage people who are already active in the community but don't follow what we do to come and peruse the site. <Sylvere> I'd like to revisit the issue of the YouTube roundtable. <LadyCG> I'm too tired to think of anything useful at this point <Merticus> Anshar: Ironically, SoulSplat hosts a “Dark Trivia” thread that involves vampirism via the AVA forums – maybe the two of you can network on something specifically tailored for the vampire community lol. <AcrophobicPixie> YouTube would be a good thing. <M_Belanger> Oooh ... some little Flash thing? <Merticus> I wish Zilchy was here to weigh in on that... (afk finding Zilchy) <AcrophobicPixie> I'll have to get my hair done, and the little brother in line when I tape it, but it's feasible <Sylvere> I like what Zilchy's doing but I'd like to see more of us involved. <Sylvere> I know some don't want the publicity but I think we can do an acceptable job with those who are comfortable with it. <NyteMuse> I'd LIKE to be more involved, but I feel like videos where the speaker's face is blacked out aren't taken seriously. <Merticus> Who is willing to pitch in to work with Zilchy on the YouTube roundtable projects proposed a few months back? <AcrophobicPixie> I will. * Sylvere raises hand * AcrophobicPixie raises her hand <M_Belanger> Well, I've got a fancy digital video camera, if I could only figure out how the damned thing works. <AcrophobicPixie> Michelle, if you come to my store, I'll help you out. I give digicam classes. <Merticus> The thread is already established on the forum under projects... just waiting for those who wish to participate to coordinate with each other. That will take an offline/inter-email arrangement to work out. <Mike_Future> On the YouTube note, has anyone seen what Anonymous had been doing with the scientology protests? <M_Belanger> Zilchy -- maybe arrange to have guest appearances? <NyteMuse> I wouldn't mind doing audio or podcasts... I've got a mic that works now and decent sound-editing software. Just can't go on the video thing. <Ravena_> Yes, I've seen it Mike. <Ravena_> And no, I'm not doing anything on video, ever. lol <M_Belanger> Hey -- if folks download Skype, we could do a roundtable podcast. <NyteMuse> Yay for Skype! <Anshar> ooh. fun! <Merticus> Though as a group I suppose we could determine what format and topics we'd like to discuss, etc. <M_Belanger> Not video, but I *do* know how to edit that, at least a little. <AcrophobicPixie> That could work. <Mike_Future> I think frequent YouTube videos such as those, expressing our opinions would be an idea to consider. <Sylvere> Gawd, no Skype. I already have too much crap on my computer. <Merticus> Or perhaps a series of longer cut videos - more continuity. <Camazotz> I'm torn. I think on one hand it's a good idea, but if I'm meant to be here representing those in my "family" then they don't want us more public... catch-22 for me. <Merticus> Yes, it's definitely one of those double-edged swords... YouTube is helping and hurting the community at the same time by my estimation. <Merticus> And the spin-off videos are less than always accurate sources of information. <Camazotz> Glad you agree Merticus. <Merticus> In all honestly if it were up to me very little if anything would ever be public domain, however, since that isn't and unfortunately will never be the case I'm resigned to seeing that what is shown is responsible, etc. <Ravena_> What is the big secret Merticus? We don't sacrifice young virgins... well, only on Sundays… <Merticus> The hassle (or rather repetitiveness) more so than anything else of dealing with those from outside the community. <Sylvere> Merticus: I wouldn't have put us in the public eye either, but Don Henrie forced us there whether we like it or not. Since we can't go back, we must go forward. <Ravena_> For someone who thinks it's a hassle you sure put a lot of effort into omg what will the public think. <Merticus> Sylvere: I agree with you. Ravena: Hopes of lessoning future hassles or misunderstandings is precisely why I invest the amount of time I do. Hence the concept “responsible media portrayal”. <NyteMuse> Sylvere: If you have enough cell minutes, you could call in on your cell phone, I think. <M_Belanger> For those with a tech brain -- if we get mp3 audio of, say a roundtable discussion of some folks, is it possible to do something to turn it into a YouTube video? <AcrophobicPixie> If need be, someone could figure out how to do the translation of podcast to video thing, where we could have a transcript on the screen. <Mike_Future> We don't have to appear on camera. <M_Belanger> Even if it's just with some kind of slideshow? <RavenHarte> I only just today checked out Second Life and it was KILLING this stupid machine... I think Skype would blow this up. <Mike_Future> Yes Michelle. <NyteMuse> Michelle, yes. <M_Belanger> That would also protect people who didn't want to appear on camera. <AcrophobicPixie> Michelle, it's possible, but I don't have the programs. <Sylvere> NyteMuse: I could probably call on my landline...unlimited LD at a flat rate, ftw. <NyteMuse> I think I have the program for it. <Mike_Future> Who would do that voiceovers is the issue? <NyteMuse> I'll poke around and see if I can do some test runs of movie creation. <AncientKhan> How about something other than YouTube, like a video upload to VVC? <Ravena_> I'm okay with voice work. <Merticus> I'm always up for audio but not video. <NyteMuse> That's another option. <Mike_Future> YouTube reaches more people. "These are the opinions of the VVC" type of thing. <Lono> I recommend Adobe Premiere if you have a PC, Final Cut Pro if you have a MAC to edit the video. <NyteMuse> I'm totally fine with voice. <M_Belanger> I'd suggest getting volunteers & doing maybe 5-6 people at a time, several episodes to get as many in as possible. <AncientKhan> If folks are really interested, they'll find us. Always have. * Sylvere agrees with Mike re: distribution <AcrophobicPixie> Plus, putting it on YouTube aids in embedding the video on to other sites. <Camazotz> Doesn't the book idea we've discussed in some ways overlap with this? <M_Belanger> I think it does. <M_Belanger> So maybe we do the two projects together, more or less? <M_Belanger> Cover the same three questions <Mike_Future> Yes <M_Belanger> Just in audio format. <M_Belanger> So we can get a lively debate going. <RavenHarte> Perhaps the videos can help promote the book? <NyteMuse> Camazotz: Yes, but some people are more video-inclined, so I'd say we go both ways. <Mike_Future> I was thinking, though, of addressing community problems as they pop up in opinion video pieces. Such as Sharkey. <AcrophobicPixie> If we read our articles and record it, we'd have a step up on getting it to audio book. <Merticus> Yes, we could do one to that point - on a wide range. It would also be nice to have film taken at TWILIGHT or other gatherings... especially the panel discussions if panelists agree to be filmed. <NyteMuse> I wouldn't mind doing editing for audio... <M_Belanger> I've got a sweet contact at Podiobooks if we want to go that route. * NyteMuse has degree in sound design <Lono> ProTools or Wave Studio for audio. <NyteMuse> Actually, I've grown fond of Sony Soundforge. * Sylvere has been told I have an *excellent* voice...but hates how I sound filtered through technology. <Lono> Another good one... forgot about that program. <Ravena_> I think everyone hates the sound of their own voice, I do at least. <Sylvere> SphynxCatVP is the one to ask how I sound in the 'Net. She tuned in when I was on "Nightwatch". <Mike_Future> So have the voice distorted. If we all agree on what is being shown it will be a "one voice" kind of thing. <RavenHarte> If you think of something you need me for or I can contribute I'm good for either audio or video. <Merticus> Everyone let's work to get the roundtable thread active again and see if we can have something come of this since obviously there is GREAT interest. <Lono> I speak to fast when I’m on a radio interview... and sometimes have the "um" curse. <M_Belanger> Which is why I think a project that just records audio, but does some kind of image thingy to make it a video and give people stuff to look at skirts the issue of folks who don't want to be on camera. * NyteMuse agrees with Michelle <Mike_Future> Agreed <Sylvere> I'm ok with being on camera. <Mike_Future> The VVC logo could be shown with a voice over. <M_Belanger> Download Skype. With Audacity, I can record any conference calls. The podcasters do it all the time. <Sylvere> I think the transcript idea is better. <M_Belanger> Hell, I might even be able to get Chris to host it (and therefore edit it). <AcrophobicPixie> Or like what some people do to songs, and post the lyrics in time to the music. We could do that with a transcript. <Sylvere> Just watching a static logo is boring. People will turn it off and go to something else. <M_Belanger> I love you all… I am not typing up a transcript. <NyteMuse> I might be convinced...I used to do transcription. Almost went into court reporting for a while. <Merticus> Well the details we can work out... maybe composite still shots or something. <RavenHarte> I agree just the logo won’t work. * zilchmeister peeks. <AcrophobicPixie> Well, each person could write out what they said. <Merticus> And here is Zilchy to take the floor on YouTube and videos. <zilchmeister> oh crap, thanks Merticus <Merticus> Someone in a nutshell care to catch Zilchy up on the videos? Basically we are resurrecting the original idea of a roundtable, audio, group, etc. filmed discussion, debate, etc. <Merticus> Zilchy how would you characterize your overall feedback from your videos or the state of media on vampirism on YouTube, etc. in general? <M_Belanger> OK, so video but not really roundtable and the articles to be a book. And on that note of rather amazing productive community action I have to go drive DJ Th'Elf to the club. <zilchmeister> Merticus, the feedback on the whole has been much the same as what could be expected from webmasters. <zilchmeister> i.e. I get people asking the same questions over and over regardless of my having answered them in videos. <Ravena_> That's because people are stupid Zilchy. <Merticus> So do you feel like you are accomplishing anything with the videos? Overall? <zilchmeister> True <zilchmeister> Merticus, yes I do feel like there's some accomplishment. <zilchmeister> As it goes, I get mixed reactions from overwhelmingly positive to "grow up, tool." <zilchmeister> But as for making a difference, yes I do feel that that is the case. <M_Belanger> Let's actually get these done. I'm sort of excited. <M_Belanger> ::waves:: <Gabrielx> Let's see if we can do them without killing one another ;p <Merticus> Announcements: TWILIGHT III will be held in Seattle, WA on September 26-28, 2008. DragonCon - Atlanta, GA is August 29 – Sept. 1, 2008. Vampternoon Tea (Mary Cassat Tea Room - Rittenhouse Hotel) is August 30, 2008 in Philadelphia, PA – before Dracula’s Ball. <Merticus> Any other reminders? <AcrophobicPixie> Black Swan Haven (BSH) meetup is next August ‘09 at Otakon in Baltimore, MD. <Merticus> IV. Business Reminders <Merticus> Refer to the forum for all current discussions. <Merticus> Thank you all for coming! <Merticus> <<<<<<END MEETING LOG>>>>>>
December 6, 2008 - VVC Meeting
Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) Public Meeting – December 6, 2008
Attendees (27):
Acrophobic Pixie – Black Swan Haven (BSH) Anshar Seraphim – House Lost Haven Camazotz – Sanguinox (NOX) Message Board Cynsanity – Vampire Community Message Board (VCMB) Gabriel – House Lost Haven Imon – Les Vampires Isealdor – Vampire Realm Of Darkness Khan – The Dark Nations & Independent Representative Lady Slinky – Vampire Community Message Board (VCMB) Lono – PsychicVampire.org Mairi – ShadowLore Merticus – Atlanta Vampire Alliance (AVA) & Suscitatio Enterprises, LLC Michelle Belanger – House Kheperu & MichelleBelanger.com NyteMuse – House Rosa Perce Coeur – Manerium Lamiis Ravena – House Lost Haven RavenHarte – Clann Caladvwlch SapphoWolf – House Maidenfear sarasvati – Echoes of Night & VCMB SphynxCatVP – SphynxCatVP Real Vampires Support Site Stephen O’Mallie – Clan O’Mallie & House Vengeance Sylvere ap Leanan – Real Vampires Community Alliance (RVCA) Vyrdolak – By Light Unseen Wreckmaster – PsychicVampire.org Xeurika – House Quinotaur Zero – Atlanta Vampire Alliance (AVA) & Suscitatio Enterprises, LLC Zilchy – Independent Representative
Discussion Agenda:
I. Meeting Information
Welcome to the third and final public meeting of Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) for 2008. If you have not attended a VVC meeting before or are reading this for the first time please briefly take note of how this meeting will be conducted. The transcript from tonight’s meeting is being logged and will be made publicly available.
Topics will be presented in the order they appear on the agenda. Please do not skip ahead and please do not suggest discussion of items not on the agenda until at the end of each major discussion topic.
Feel free to speak your mind on any and all topics in a civil manner and offer any supporting information, links, or material as needed. Thank you for coming and now let’s begin!
II. Background & Introduction
VVC was founded January 2006.
The purpose of the Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) is to develop friendly relations among the various Houses, Covens, Orders, organizations, and individual leaders of the vampire community; to encourage cooperation in solving community related problems and in promoting respect for the views, ideas, and opinions of others without seeking to establish a unifying or governing body; and to be a center for harmonizing the actions of groups in attaining these ends. – August 8, 2006
Voices Of The Vampire Community (VVC) does not assert itself as the exclusive organization of leaders or notable persons in the vampi(y)re community nor do we view ourselves or our actions as legislative or authoritarian.
The members of the VVC are representative of multiple groups, Houses, Orders, paths, beliefs, and segments of the vampi(y)re community who meet and are able to put aside personal differences to work together to discuss, suggest, implement, and support projects, ideas, and other intellectual works that help to improve the overall community.
We are available to answer questions through the community feedback form available at the site above.
III. Discussion
As a departure from the specific matters we discuss in business meetings, tonight’s meeting will take a broader and more relevant approach to the vampi(y)re community. Opinions offered from members of the VVC who are unable to attend tonight’s meeting will be posted first after the asking of each question. All present members please allow time for this to occur prior to posting your own response. Just as a reminder, conversation is to be kept civil, statements or claims backed by example where necessary, and in cases of insuperable disagreements; a concession between parties to respectfully agree to disagree.
a. The Vampire & Popular Media - A Six-Part Question: From HBO’s TrueBlood, Stephenie Meyer’s Twilight, SouthPark - Goth vs. Vampire, etc. to History Channel’s MonsterQuest, WEtv’s Secret Lives of Women, Tyra Banks Halloween Special, etc; the “vampire” - fictional and real - has invaded our televisions and almost all forms of media. This was the truly a year for the “vampire” and 2009 should be no exception. (1) In your own estimation what has been the impact of the fictional-based shows on the real vampire community? (2) Have you noticed an influx of new participants, the development of any positive or disturbing trends, or any shifts in the population of the community? (3) What do you think the long term effects of increased public interest in “vampire” related entertainment will have on our community? (4) What impact has the non-fictional (real) vampire community television (non-print) programs had on the real vampire community? (5) Which would you classify as positive, neutral, or negative and why? (6) What types of documentary-style or informational programs, if any, would you view as potentially beneficial to the community and how would you define such “benefit”?
b. Representation & Coming Out Of The Coffin - A Five-Part Question: (1) What messages and goals, if any, should the vampire community and representatives who appear in the public press attempt to convey or promote to the general public? (2) When a representative, or someone on their own accord, choose to go public about vampirism what expectations and standards should be expected of them and what types of information would the majority of the community most likely consider appropriate for public consumption? Take a moment to examine both sides of the “In or Out of the Coffin Debate”. (3) What are some of the advantages of widespread public recognition of real vampirism and self-identifying real vampires in relation to both vampires and the vampire community? (4) What are some of the disadvantages to publicly revealing one’s nature and the potential impact or repercussions on the larger vampire community? (5) As both members and leaders of the vampire community do you think it’s possible to find a middle-ground that would satisfy public and community interests while addressing the desire for others to remain private or “underground” in the vampire community? If so, how?
c. The International Vampire Community: What steps can the community take to bridge the information and networking gap between U.S./Canadian and European/South American/etc. vampires? Aside from multi-lingual translations of documents and culturally diverse forums what specific avenues should be explored to encourage transparent dialogue and participation? What are some particular differences in cultural and communication styles you’ve noticed between different regions of the world and how many individuals outside of your country do you regularly speak with? How do vampires and vampiric-identity or practice differ in these countries as opposed to your own? Could normalization of resources and information-sharing become a reality in the near future? If so, how do we get to that point?
d. Diversity, Perception, & Empowerment: What steps can we take as a community to help improve our own lives, encourage appropriate and meaningful participation, and prevent the over-simplification of what it means to be a vampire while still helping those coming to know their nature for the first time? As vampires we often have an incredible diversity in the personal meaning we ascribe to the concept of “vampirism” - some viewing it solely as a need - physical, spiritual, or both (albeit sang, psi, or hybrid), others as a potential medical condition or deficiency, still others as an ability, state of being, or extension of energy work, and many who incorporate all of these views into their own menagerie. While we are engaging in self-examination how can we maintain focus on supporting the vampire community, arrest the self-deprecating mindset that the only aspect to vampirism is a “constant struggle”, and bypass the pitfalls of division over terminology?
e. Other topics you’d like to bring up for discussion?
IV. Business Reminders
<Merticus> <<<<<< BEGIN MEETING LOG >>>>>> <Merticus> Voices of the Vampire Community <Merticus> Public Meeting - December 6, 2008 <Merticus> Discussion Agenda: <Merticus> I. Meeting Information <Merticus> Welcome to the third and final public meeting of Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) for 2008. If you have not attended a VVC meeting before or are reading this for the first time please briefly take note of how this meeting will be conducted. The transcript from tonight’s meeting is being logged and will be made publicly available. <Merticus> Topics will be presented in the order they appear on the agenda. Please do not skip ahead and please do not suggest discussion of items not on the agenda until at the end of each major discussion topic. <Merticus> Feel free to speak your mind on any and all topics in a civil manner and offer any supporting information, links, or material as needed. Thank you for coming and now let’s begin! <Merticus> II. Background & Introduction <Merticus> VVC was founded January 2006. <Merticus> The purpose of the Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) is to develop friendly relations among the various Houses, Covens, Orders, organizations, and individual leaders of the vampire community; to encourage cooperation in solving community related problems and in promoting respect for the views, ideas, and opinions of others without seeking to establish a unifying or governing body; and to be a center for harmonizing the actions of groups in attaining these ends. - August 8, 2006 <Merticus> Voices Of The Vampire Community (VVC) does not assert itself as the exclusive organization of leaders or notable persons in the vampi(y)re community nor do we view ourselves or our actions as legislative or authoritarian. <Merticus> The members of the VVC are representative of multiple groups, Houses, Orders, paths, beliefs, and segments of the vampi(y)re community who meet and are able to put aside personal differences to work together to discuss, suggest, implement, and support projects, ideas, and other intellectual works that help to improve the overall community. <Merticus> For more information please visit our web site at: http://www.veritasvosliberabit.com/vvc.html <Merticus> We are available to answer questions through the community feedback form available at the site above. <Merticus> III. Discussion <Merticus> As a departure from the specific matters we discuss in business meetings, tonight’s meeting will take a broader and more relevant approach to the vampi(y)re community. Opinions offered from members of the VVC who are unable to attend tonight’s meeting will be posted first after the asking of each question. <Merticus> All present members please allow time for this to occur prior to posting your own response. Just as a reminder, conversation is to be kept civil, statements or claims backed by example where necessary, and in cases of insuperable disagreements; a concession between parties to respectfully agree to disagree. <Merticus> a. The Vampire & Popular Media - A Six-Part Question: From HBO’s TrueBlood, Stephenie Meyer’s Twilight, SouthPark - Goth vs. Vampire, etc. to History Channel’s MonsterQuest, WEtv’s Secret Lives of Women, Tyra Banks Halloween Special, etc; the “vampire” - fictional and real - has invaded our televisions and almost all forms of media. This was the truly a year for the “vampire” and 2009 should be no exception. (1) In your own estimation what has been the impact of the fictional-based shows on the real vampire community? <Merticus> (2) Have you noticed an influx of new participants, the development of any positive or disturbing trends, or any shifts in the population of the community? (3) What do you think the long term effects of increased public interest in “vampire” related entertainment will have on our community? (4) What impact has the non-fictional (real) vampire community television (non-print) programs had on the real vampire community? (5) As both members and leaders of the vampire community do you think it’s possible to find a middle-ground that would satisfy public and community interests while addressing the desire for others to remain private or “underground” in the vampire community? If so, how? <Lady Slinky> a. (1) Fiction has always had a huge influence on the vampiric community. Its influence can be seen in almost all corners and aspects of the community from the black veil, vocabulary and houses to fashion and forum/website décor. The influence can even be seen in the YouTube films we the community put out and the information that we preserve, the skills that are claimed and keeping alive the thought that 300 year old vamps might be real and just have a retrovirus. <Lady Slinky> a. (2) I have noticed an influx of new participants to the community. It's the same influx we get every time a new vamp flick comes out. You get a few real vamps who stumble on us while enjoying some fiction or researching fiction to find answers to what's going on with them like many of us did in our early days. As always a large portion of the influx is young teens who think it is cool or are really just looking for a place to fit in. <Lady Slinky> Often these teens will play the part whether they really are or not and usually come with a boat load of fantastic attention seeking stories of their trials awakening. You also get a few skeptics and all out trolls. <Lady Slinky> a. (3) As long as we continue to cling to the aesthetics of fiction it will continue to permeate our community which in turn perpetuates the stereotype that we are all deluded people who are obsessed with a fictional construct and cling to it in an attempt to escape reality. <Lady Slinky> If we are able to successfully separate ourselves from the aesthetics of fictional vampires then we may be able to use the media hype to the advantage of those who want to out the community to the masses. <Lady Slinky> a. (4) With Non-Fiction documentaries there are a much higher influx of new people with the number of skeptics and trolls being about equal to the number of real seekers. The number of "fangbangers" is much less then with fiction. I find the trolls and skeptics from our non fiction pieces seem to be more vicious. <Lady Slinky> a. (5-6) I personally would prefer it if the community did not have this need to make sure everyone knows that there are real life vampires at least until we have something more concrete to give them.. I think the documentaries such as the A&E special and I think there were some on Discovery were neutral. <Lady Slinky> While the format was well done and the producers respectful the impact to the community of posers and skeptics outweigh much of its positive aspects for me. Bad talk shows are very negative. They don't educate anyone, serve to make us mockeries and bring us nothing but trolls as well as creates drama within the community when people start expressing their opinions about it and being slammed for them. <Mairi> a. (1) Honestly, I haven't seen much of an impact yet. Granted ShadowLore has had more people joining the group recently and claiming to have been awakened vampire. But this also happens every winter so I don't credit those programs with having much to do with it. <Mairi> ShadowLore Teen group hasn't seen a rise in members and I think it would if Twilight had an affect on kids that many fear. I moderate a True Blood discussion forum and none of the members there have expressed an interest in being turned or in knowing more about the OVC. They are just wrapped up in the plot of the books and the program. <Mairi> a. (2) As I said above, not really. (3) I think there is always going to be an interest. We are unusual and those interested want to know if we are a threat to society, just a bunch of nuts or could we actually be the real deal after evolution. <Mairi> a. (4) Some have had a positive affect. Allowing society to see us as we really are, just like everyone else. And others make us look like freaks. (5) The interviews that Michelle Belanger does. <Mairi> She is intelligent and articulate in her speech and information. She also always appears dressed as everyone else and doesn't try to come across as a superior being. I also felt that the article in the Washington Post was positive even if the author took it upon herself to cross the line in many places. <Mairi> a. (6) If we are going to step out into public view we need to make sure we do it in the best ways possible. We Must show them that we are potentially just like everyone else......our only difference is our need for additional energy. And we are for the most part just as sane as they are. <Perce Coeur> a. In France during 2008 we don't have had such a vampire invasion by the media. French reality shows are not "that opened" to talk about real vampirism. On the other hand, vampire fiction stay vampire fiction. It may have an impact on teenagers still looking for some personal identity but that is all. <Stephen O’Mallie> a. + b. Why oh why do people feel the need to "come out" and make the community look like a bunch of freaks? People who work in the real world and would loose their job, house and family for being "outed". I am glad that some people can be "out" and kudos to you if you can make a living out of your lifestyle... but don't make the "hidden" ones look bad. <Stephen O’Mallie> The Tyra Banks show disgusted me. Time to go back "underground" - we did just fine hidden from the world. <RavenHarte> a. (1) From my perspective it has made some quarters of the Pagan community more empathetic to the vampyric, to get just enough of the real to make them curious, more likely to ask questions, rather than just say SHUN THEM ALL.... out dreaded spot :) <RavenHarte> a. (2) I have had a few people request admittance to the Utopia Nocturna Yahoo Group, which has had NO new members in like a year, but it’s a dead group so no discussions are going on that would tell me what the leanings are there. I am slowly getting ready to replace that group with an info only webpage since there are FAR more <RavenHarte> Otherkin and Therian groups now than there were when I started it... my intent being to bring those two communities into contact with Vamps and Pagans to try to dispel myths, understand each other more. <RavenHarte> a. (3) I think you'll go through what we (Pagans) went through, tons of "posers and wannabes" will come crawling out, some will majorly screw it up, some will become flash in the pan BNVs (Big Name Vamps) and then when it’s over you'll have <RavenHarte> come through getting the GP off your back, with some good additions to the community, and A LOT of "what not to do's" under your belt. <RavenHarte> a. (4) Well I can only judge by our group since its the only connect I have to the VC right now (besides personal friends) - but I think its helping you all define what you would prefer to see out there, and giving you the impetus to get out there and make that happen, which to me is a good thing. <RavenHarte> a. (5) I think most if it was neutral. I mean Tyra made things at least not scary. SouthPark to me was like HEY the Vamps have really arrived now, LOL. I haven’t seen Vampire Secrets yet - on DVR waiting for me, but the MonsterQuest was interesting to watch. <RavenHarte> The WEtv network one (Secret Lives Of Women) was awful but everyone on it was made to look ridiculous and other episodes I've seen weren’t better so I think the audience gets that it’s not the best work. <RavenHarte> a. (6) I think I have seen quite a few of these things done by Michele Belanger already, I don’t know that much else is needed that’s not already readily available EXCEPT perhaps the donor perspective stuff... which I myself have been remiss in getting my article in for so I can’t really talk!! <SphynxCatVP> a. (1) More people will be exposed to vampirism concepts, but with additional fictional baggage. What I've historically seen in IRC is a rash of people coming in and getting pissed because we don't meet their fictional expectations of what vampires should be like. <SphynxCatVP> a. (2) I'm not aware of changes in participants or population trends within the community, but I haven't exactly been paying attention lately... <SphynxCatVP> a. (3) Long term, I think people will become more aware of the community, especially as the journalists keep poking around the edges and finding it harder to meet their "freak of the week" quota. <SphynxCatVP> a. (4) It's hard for me to say. I've seen some of the truly horrific ones from the 90's, and compared them to the ones made today - I see improvements in how community members are treated, but we're not entirely taken seriously yet still. But, it IS a start. Baby steps before walking, as the saying goes. :) <SphynxCatVP> a. (5) Taboo: Blood Rites and A&E's Secret Lives of Vampires were among the more positive ones. We were presented more as normal people -without- 'our' segments being peppered inbetween police expose's on psychopathic killers. Taboo was done by National Geographic, so really, I think they were one of the first, if not the first, to start to treat us better than what had come before. <SphynxCatVP> a. (6) I don't entirely understand what "types" are being referred to here however what I think would be beneficial would be to actually ask reasonable questions - not the same ones that have been asked before (do you sleep in a coffin, are you only <SphynxCatVP> awake at night, etc. etc. *yawn*) - that explore more into how we live day-to-day without bringing up myths and urban legends, despite their popularity. <SphynxCatVP> However, I see good and bad to such beneficial documentaries. As people see more of how we really are, they'll start to see "the boogyman" around every corner. Those of us who are marginally "in the coffin" may get unintentionally dragged out as people eventually learn enough to put the pieces together. <SphynxCatVP> I do see that some people's lives may unintentionally get impacted negatively, even if in the *long* run - a couple generations perhaps - things will improve as people eventually understand that we're not all the "freak of the week" category. <Wreckmaster> a. (1-2) I feel the impact has been large. I have noticed a large influx into the forum I work with. The discussion is not all that great. A lot of newbs and curious folks. More of a drinks and appetizers crowd, rather than meat and potatoes. <Wreckmaster> a. (3-4) Vampires seem to be the new hip thing. Hollywood will continue to show vamps until it is not profitable. We will continue to get more folks poking around and looking into the "rabbits hole", and they will probably never go further into the hole than the rim, while Hollywood keeps profiting. <Wreckmaster> a (5-6) Negative - I do not trust the media. I am not sure I understand the question. Do you mean for this to be shown within the community, or shown to the world? I have no comment on in the community stuff. <Wreckmaster> But, I would rather we keep to ourselves than broadcast to the world that there really are "creatures that go bump in the night" The world is NOT ready for us. I will personally never tell a non-trusted (long time friend or lover) person about us, or myself, EVER. <Zero> a. (1) The increase in wide-appeal media, especially the non-challenging, lowest-common-denominator appeal of the Twilight book series, helps to normalize the abstract idea of vampires and of a vampire community by making it part of the cultural background noise. Since we take the word "vampire" from the fiction, the fictional <Zero> associations will color the mainstream's interpretation of anyone who adopts the term. The current fictional milieu has shifted the associations and assumptions surrounding the word "vampire;" since the fiction has become less spectacular, the vampire character more of an everyday person and less of an outsider, we will see the perceptions about our community shifting in those directions as well. <Zero> a. (2) I would like the community to make a concerted effort to call participants' attention to the fact that most of them are not vampires. Hanging out with the vampire community is fine, we are pretty egalitarian about who we'll socialize with. But I don't <Zero> want the mainstreaming of the idea of vampires to lead to an increase in interested people adopting false identities or misleading themselves. <Zero> a. (3) One of the vampire community's biggest problems has always been the poor public reception to our use of the word "vampire" to describe ourselves. Since the word has no known etymology and no solid definition, it's easy to pick up a very different meaning than the one we intend when we use it. <Zero> And the outside associations have always been negative. Even within the community, the vampire terminology evokes different imagery for different groups and sub-cultures within the community. <Zero> Some have latched onto the community and family aspects of the vampire fiction, others appreciate the "vampire's" evocation of gothic beauty, grace, and dignity, and others have taken the metaphor to symbolize individual spiritual strength and the perseverance of the outsider. <Zero> However, from outside the community, the use of the word has created a direct association between real people and fictional characters, without the cushion of metaphor or interpretation. The mainstream has always treated our community as people who literally "think they are vampires," not a minority group seeking to conceptualize itself <Zero> with a ready metaphor. This creates an instant worry in the mainstream that there are cults of people who are out of touch with reality, or even worse, that we are a group who has fully rejected the norms of society and represent some kind of ideological and/or physical danger. <Zero> Interestingly, the normalization of the vampire in fiction has created an identity politics for fictional vampires - the association of TrueBlood's vampires with a civil rights movement within that fictional universe signals to the audience that "vampires are people" who think like they do and want to participate in the same society. <Zero> This is a far cry from Dracula living in his drafty castle, or Anne Rice's vampires living in some wacky mountaintop estate like Batman. If we're going to be perceived as people who "think they are vampires," I think that being seen as people who think they are the kind of vampires who want to live in furnished apartments and sue for their civil rights is definitely a step up. <Zero> I hope that the normalization of the concept of vampires continues, and the vampire keeps its place in mass media as the icon that looks like Twilight and The Society of S, and shows like TrueBlood have made it. The vampire-as-literary-concept has actually moved a little bit closer to the concept as we've employed it in metaphor. <Zero> a. (4) For now, the impact doesn't come from the interviews and talk shows, the real indicator of change is that the talk shows are interested in us at all. Daytime TV has courted the vampire community before, but the most reasonable people have always been rejected in favor of the Goth kids and headcases <Zero> - whatever looked the most dramatic. The fact that talk shows, documentaries and news magazines are willing to portray a more accurate viewpoint is an immensely positive step - it means that they think their audience is interested in seeing a colorful but humanized minority group, not the circus sideshow. This means that there has been a fundamental shift in the general public's perception of identity groups, eccentric aesthetics, and the <Zero> concept of "vampires." <Zero> a. (5) I would classify the WEtv (Secret Lives Of Women w/ Vampyra) and Tyra Banks treatments as the most negative, because they both challenged the audience too much. If a mainstream audience is willing to accept a friendly and open discussion about the vampire subculture, and entertain the notion that there are fundamental differences between vampires and non-vampires, <Zero> then we have to be careful not to challenge them with too many new concepts at a time. Don Henrie was perfect for the Tyra Banks show, because he was audience-friendly and presented only one real challenge to their worldview - the blood drinking. The thing fell apart when the other guests brought in further challenges - aesthetics, family concepts ("I light my son on fire" was not <Zero> appropriate. Even "I have adopted this person as my spiritual family" would have sounded too cultish, but the challenge to the idea of the mother-son relationship embedded in Vampyra spot undid all of Don Henrie's progress). The WEtv spot gets lumped in here, too, because the concepts of BDSM and vampirism together are going to <Zero> stretch a mainstream audience beyond their willingness to concede. The idea that "we need to drink blood or feed on energy in order to live healthy lives" and the idea that "some people enjoy acting out power dynamics while being a bit aesthetically transgressive" are not only not going to be understood in conjunction with each other, <Zero> they're too much of a whammy all at once. The audience shouldn't be introduced to so many challenging concepts at once, if you're going to be asking them to accept your proposed shift in their reality. <Zero> a. (6) Something exploring the psychic aspects of vampirism particularly. A medical documentary where they do in-depth research and info on blood drinking (health concerns, dispelling misinformation about blood-borne diseases, finding out that it's not easy and that we don't do it because it's cool. A sociological treatment of the community <Zero> and its subcultures, and how we get along (or not, depending). We are a unique culture; we dress like it's Halloween, and we interact like Quakers. We expect everyone else to be as contemplative and considering as we are. We see other people's side of the argument and don't get why they don't do the same for us. We are NOT everyday people, and <Zero> though the differences are sometimes subtle, I think that we're a pretty interesting culture just waiting for an ethnography. <Merticus> a. (1) I think the impact from the fictional shows is unable to be adequately measured right now aside from the obvious media attention and widening public interest in vampires - fictional, folkloric, and even perhaps real. I only expect this to increase in 2009 with the new Underworld movie, Johnny Depp in Dark Shadows, TrueBlood Season 2, etc. <Merticus> a. (2) The periphery community networking sites have increased in membership (most notably Ning, Gaia, Facebook, and portions of Yahoo such as the Answers service) but not much in substantive conversation. There have been efforts made by community members to spread information to HBO and Twilight message boards about real vampirism and engage the curious and dabblers head-on. This is often <Merticus> met with rejection of vampirism as anything serious by the majority of the forums and not appreciated by some real vampires whose sites and information is distributed via this method. Instead of following the old adage that we would allow others to seek us out we have in turn started to go off the reservation and seek them out first. To a degree I <Merticus> support the spreading of links and quality information sources to the public when first brought up on their end but see no benefit in directly engaging in a debate over vampirism on a non-community-oriented or television/movie forum. <Merticus> a. (3) I think the long term effect will be an increased awareness that there is in fact a real vampire community or subset of the population who identify as real vampires. Along with this we will face increased scrutiny over the material that is available via our forums and web sites which will be viewed by thousands of individuals <Merticus> we likely will not have the chance to interact with and properly gauge how they perceive our particular “take on vampirism”. This is why I think we should be cautious and vigilant at increasing the quality of the information put forth. <Merticus> a. (4) The non-fictional/investigative/interview-style articles and publications on the real vampire community and individuals I hope will contribute to the gradual normalization of the subculture to the general population at least on some base level. The more material we have out there in print conveying that we are indeed a diverse <Merticus> community that doesn’t hold to the common “Goth, Coffin, or Capes/Fangs” stereotypes, the more apt we are to be taken seriously by academia, the scientific community, law enforcement, and perhaps even by some in the general public. <Merticus> I feel that we can maintain our unique identity and perception to others while reinforcing the idea we are a responsible, ethical, and reasonable community. <Merticus> a. (5) I’d classify History Channel’s MonsterQuest along with several of the recent print articles - ABC’s Real-Life Vampires and the Washington Post article as overall positive in helping to portray a serious and non-sensationalist side to vampire. While I disagree with certain elements of all of these productions/publications I don’t <Merticus> think they reached the level that WEtv’s Secret Lives Of Women or the Tyra Banks show did of portraying vampires as side-show performers. Don Henrie’s performance on Tyra Banks in comparison with Sarah Lester and Vampyra was both professional and informative to the audience <Merticus> (this is the perspective we need to view these shows from). Maury Povich was short and pseudo-informative but overshadowed by the theatrics added by the show in keeping with their format. By the starkest of contrast Vampyra’s performance has now twice been deplorable. <Merticus> My thoughts of SouthPark (non-stop laughing) and the NY Daily News Fashion article are neutral - if anything they help bring “vampire” into the cultural lexicon as something other than a blood-sucking creature that roams the night. <Merticus> a. (6) Anyone who seriously considers accepting media offers needs to know what they are getting into beforehand… whether it’s Tyra Banks or Maury Povich or on the opposite end of the spectrum Oprah or Larry King. They shouldn’t be afraid to say “no” when the producer or format of the show or article is irresponsible or sensationalistic with their requests. <Merticus> Granted we never know how things will turn out once they have gone through editing and hours of interviews are turned into 1-3 minute clips but we should be researching those who wish to showcase us and be familiar with their past work. <Merticus> I hope that in the future respectable persons from the community will be featured or interviewed on quality film, radio, and print that goes beyond the superficial questions that often reinforce the idea of the fantastical. More A&E, History, Discovery, National Geographic, and cultural/scientific-based programs and perhaps a roundtable discussion filmed from a conference or other gathering. <M_Belanger> 1. Many recent shows have helped raise awareness in the presence of a real vampire community. HBO's True Blood is a prime example of this, as its advertising campaign in part used the existence of this community to help promote the show. Although that campaign (in my opinion) dangerously blurred the lines between the True Blood world and the realm vampire community, it nevertheless created opportunities for dialogue about us as well as on several television & radio media outlets. <SapphoWolf> I haven't noticed an influx of genuine participants, and we induct a new group every year. However I am getting a lot of mail from people who think they're sincere but are actually just confused. <AncientKhan> I just saw someone who has been part of the OVC for a while use the term "fangbanger" here in a sentence and mean it. I am beside myself. <Vyrdolak> a. (1) Not nearly as big an impact as people in the VC have been assuming and worrying it will. <Vyrdolak> People DO know the difference between fact and fiction, even young people! <Vyrdolak> All those "Team Edward" kiddies and True Blood fans think we're boring and delusional. <Vyrdolak> Or part of HBO's viral marketing campaign. <Vyrdolak> a. (2) I have been getting an uptick in e-mails from young people asking about the Twilight saga <Vyrdolak> "is this or that really true?" etc usually in a cautious way <Vyrdolak> *Everyone* who writes me finds it necessary to insist, repeatedly, that they're not "crazy". <Vyrdolak> I'm also hearing a lot that people have been brushed off and/or called crazy by others they've e-mailed <Vyrdolak> "You're the first person who's taken me seriously," I've been hearing recently, a lot more than I used to. <Vyrdolak> I can't explain this but it's very noticeable. <Isealdor> Much like the paranormal/ghost hunting community, I think a lot of the “popular” vampire things have started to push the community from being viewed as “freaks” or on the fringes of society as much and into more of a popculture thing. However, it’s also added a number of new stereotypes and misconceptions, and a mass of people now wanting to be real vampires, because it’s “unique and cool and special”. <M_Belanger> 2. My biggest concern lies with the popularity of Twilight & its target audience. Meyers' goal with the books seems to have been to use vampirism as a symbol for sex to encourage abstinence and responsible sex among teens. Unfortunately, the teen and tween audience of these books are utterly romanced with the vampire itself... <M_Belanger> ...and I think this fascination lead some to seek out the real vampire community at an age where I do not think they can make reliably good decisions about their participation. <M_Belanger> They might know the difference, but terms have been borrowed from one to the other & back again from the start of the official vampire community. <Sylvere> The public’s fascination with vampires continues to grow. <Sylvere> However, instead of the horrific, inhuman, and debauched yet alluring creatures vampires were in the late 1800s and early 1900s, the vampire of today is beautiful, sexy, and complicated. Anne Rice and White Wolf showed us the core of humanity beneath the monstrous veneer. <Sylvere> This has translated into an acknowledgement that the vampire is an appealing and powerful archetype. More people identify with the “vampire mystique” and shrug off the less attractive characteristics. Vampires no longer rape and kill; they seduce and feed on willing participants. <Sylvere> This is a double-edged sword; more people are willing to be donors but, simultaneously, there are more “lifestylers” trying to get in on the action. Media have taken notice of the public’s interest and have been more willing to treat the vampire community as an interesting, if eccentric, mode of living. <Sylvere> Though there are still the “freak of the week” shows, serious journalists are stepping up to find out about us and report facts rather focus on the sideshow aspects of the community. The long-term effect of such media attention has yet to be seen but the growing number of accurate, informative works is encouraging. <Sylvere> We may never see a vampire president, but it would be nice to think we might be able to live our lives without fear of losing jobs or loved ones because of our different needs. <Lono> I'd have to agree with Wreckmaster...There have been at least 100 new members on my forum in a 4 day span after Twilight was released. <zilchy> I agree with Michelle on this, but we also have the influx of 15 year olds who want to bear our children. Double edged sword FTW <AcrophobicPixie> I have not noticed a large influx of new members. There have been a few, but we've been around for only a year, and most of our newbies come over from other OVC forums. There have been a couple of people I keep tabs on (especially with people breaking board policy on things like donor/vamp ads) but nothing that flags a huge warning at my site. <AcrophobicPixie> Honestly, I don't think the effects will be much more than what's already been had by the books. If there is a long term effect from True Blood and Twilight, it will probably have the same effect as Anne Rice's novels. <Camazotz> Sanguinox (Forum) hasn't especially been affected numerically. <SapphoWolf> Well, let's face it. Real life tends to suck. Anything that offers an alternative is going to be appealing. <cynsanity> (1) Impact of shows on the community - significantly less than I originally expected. When Underworld came out, there were much more teenagers who suddenly discovered that they were vampires/lycans/hybrids. When Stephenie Meyer's book came out and gained a following, there were dozens of Twilight fans invading the corner of the OVC I am inhabiting. <Lono> TrueBlood was more of an annoyance than anything else. <Isealdor> There are always the mass influxes of new people anytime there’s a major, mainstream thing about vampires, be it a movie or popular book or news article or tv show feature…and lately we’ve had all of those. At least a number of places I’m at, it’s shifted the population down a little in average age, but I don’t know how long-term that effect will be. I’m guessing that a good percentage of the people we’ve picked up recently wont actually <Isealdor> stay around overly long, as soon as they figure out that our skin doesn’t glitter when we go out in the sun and that we haven’t graduated from high school 115 times. <AcrophobicPixie> I personally like the documentaries and the like. I think they do help people outside the community to understand us better, and not be all freaked out. Showing a doc to my mother, and handing her a copy of Vamps in their words helped her understand that my brother and I aren't total psychos and the like. <cynsanity> (1) I personally think that the movie caters to an already existing fanbase, which entered the OVC when the books came out and they wanted some of that vampire goodness. <cynsanity> TrueBlood has, as of now, not yet drawn the attention of the younger viewers towards the OVC, as far as I can ascertain. <cynsanity> However, everyone's giving more attention to the media now, and the camps of "no media attention at all" vs. "let's come out of the coffin" are definitely forming. <M_Belanger> 3. As the vampire in fiction & film has gained increasingly more expsoure from the mid 90's onward, it has driven fans of the vampire to seek the archetype anywhere it appears -- including the real vampire community. This has raised awareness about our community and created an understandable curiosity about who we are. <M_Belanger> and how we differ from the traditional media portrayals. In the long run, this means that more and more media attention will be directed toward us and, as the fictional archetype goes mainstream, we as a community will inevitably encounter more requests to share our personal stories. <Ravena> I'm not convinced vampires as a topic is more popular now than it was before. <M_Belanger> Ravena --- REALLY? <Ravena> Vampires are archetypes, there were tons of fiction and movies before now. <M_Belanger> Massive media campaigns, promotions, a huge influx of vampire-specific romance novels (complete with a whole new recognized genre!) all argue against that <Ravena> The vampire was always popular. <Anshar> I got wantonly bizarre emails after appearing in the ABCNews.com piece, I can only imagine what will happen after FOX’s Hannity's America (Beyond Belief) tomorrow. <Anshar> They just get swept up. <SapphoWolf> TrueBlood is based on a novel series...we all knew that? <Lono> South Park... what can I say I loved it...we have arrived, you arent anyone unless you've been mocked by Matt and Trey. <Vyrdolak> a. (3) I really don't think it will have any. We've seen vampire-mania before. <Vyrdolak> I encourage everyone who contacts me to read up on folklore, the history of vampire media, etc. <Vyrdolak> Just so they have some perspective on the big picture. <Vyrdolak> I hope -that- will be the effects, people learning more. <Isealdor> Hopefully some of the media coverage and publications and things will at least have promoted a little bit of greater awareness of the VC, but what I’m really hoping is that it will bring a bit of interest from some different communities, namely the medical and psych communities, and we might have a better shot at getting some real research done. The only other thing I really see coming from all of it, in the long term, is maybe a little bit of the general <Isealdor> social stigma around vampirism will be decreased. <SapphoWolf> The folklore explains so much about the vampire archetype. <Vyrdolak> a. (4) Largely negative. Like the Pagan community, the VC appears to be very out of touch with how "the normal world" really sees us. <Vyrdolak> I recently told someone that my company publishes "vampire books" and she asked, "what are vampire books?" <Vyrdolak> The majority of the world doesn't even relate to genre fiction, let alone "real vampires". <Vyrdolak> The Washington Post article by Monica Hesse was reprinted by a Hawaiian newspaper. <Vyrdolak> and someone commented "this is what's wrong with the news media today, what a waste of space to print this". <Vyrdolak> But that attitude is the majority one. <cynsanity> (2) Not as of yet, nope. <cynsanity> (3) More lifestylers, more people desperate for a glamorous and "special" life pretending to themselves that they are vampires and coming to us for validation of their personal fantasies/delusions. <cynsanity> And definitely more media attention. <Camazotz> I'm concerned at people wanting to be donors, if they don't know what they're offering to be a part of. <AcrophobicPixie> Ditto, Cama <zilchy> Camazotz - thats why we inform them when they offer. <AcrophobicPixie> That's why we're very blatant as to what we do, and what is required of donors. <Lono> I was very dismayed with the whole Don Henrie in the coffin scene on Maury Povch. I think it set us back to the days of Jerry Springer for a bit there... <Ravena> The attention is just shifted from a book to the media. <cynsanity> (4) They most definitely caused a stir within the community. The main problems here seem to be the portrayal of sanguinarians (a- represented by Lucien or whatever his name is, b- it's always all about the energy and just rudimentary means of feeding, hitting the sore spot of the sanguinarians) as well as the question "who made X and/or Y spokespersons for the real vampire community?". A lot of people are unhappy with the "public faces" we as a community, have. <Ravena> Everytime a new movie or something comes out though, we get an intake of fools in #sang <Ravena> Then it dies down, then the next one comes out. <Isealdor> Some of the things that have been shown and said to be part of the RVC havent really helped public image and some things said that have really frustrated portions of the community, because they’re being taken as representitive of everyone within the community, when often something is just one person’s views or lifestyle choices. <SapphoWolf> If they only understood what the vampire represents in the human psyche around the world... <SapphoWolf> That's why it's relevant, damn it. <cynsanity> (4) Don Henrie is a matter of debate for many anyways, Father Sebastiaaaaaaaaaaaan remains a controversial figure, Michelle Belanger is focusing on the aspects of energy feeding and energy system alterations, Vampyra is... beyond words, and Sarah Lester just comes across as stupid and arrogant. At the same time, many in the community struggle with 'coming out of the coffin' to even their best friends and closest <cynsanity> confidantes, and although they criticise our "public faces", they can't come out on TV for various reasons and fears. Also, the depiction of real vampires in the media are a reason for debate. <AncientKhan> I'll just call a spade a spade. We've hit a "jumping the shark" moment. <M_Belanger> 4. Impact -- Mostly, I see that the widespread number of books & shows has just made people more curious about real vampires and has inspired journalists, radio show hosts, and several television personalities to seek real vampires out in order to get them to tell their stories. <M_Belanger> The format of many of these interviews is definitely influenced by the relatively new genre of reality tv -- there is a level os voyeurism to it, but that voyeurism has infected quite a lot of print media & television recently. <NyteMuse> While I may have originally been a big advocate of getting us out there, I'm starting to lean more with Lady Slinky in this... it would be nice if there was either something more concrete to point to (in the sense of science or evidence) or at least a tad bit more cohesion within the community itself. And at the same time, I agree with RavenHarte. I've felt much safer coming out to the pagan groups I'm involved in because I've had Michelle's books to refer them to… <NyteMuse> putting GOOD information out there in relatively easy accessibility, without doing the screaming up and down shouting "Lookitme! Validateme!" <cynsanity> (6) If we have to deal with this kind of exposure, I'd say a documentary along the lines of "Secret Lives of Women" combined with the approach of "Secret Lives of Vampires" as well as the National Geographic special (from what I've seen in small bits of it) could work. The more prominent faces of the community could play to the media's need for glamour and the freaky, a few of us who are more 'mundane' when it comes to appearance and work <cynsanity> or lifestyle, together with solid information about, for example, what safety precautions are taken by sangs, how one came to realise that one was vampiric etc. - finding a balance between what the media wants and what we want to convey. If we can raise money somehow, we could do it on our own. <cynsanity> (6) The benefit? I don't really know. It seems we can't escape the entertainment media's attention anymore, so if we have to be out there, let it be on our terms. It would also serve as a realistic contrast to vampire movies or badly done talk-shows or pseudo-documentaries in which we are portrayed as freaks. <Vyrdolak> a. (6) I don't think they're beneficial at all. I don't think we should do any more of these non-fiction shows. <SapphoWolf> It's kind of like, "Are you going to do a show on green eyed people?" <NyteMuse> I agree that the Vampyra material is probably some of the worst, because it tries to force the audience to accept TWO minorities that most of mainstream is no bueno with: vampires and kink. Positive material would, IMO, work more to show a distance in the two. It's OK to be vampiric and like kink, but they are two very different communities/lifestyles, so even if I DID get a lot of energy via BDSM, I wouldn't give that fodder to the media. <Ravena> But there has been an increase in people visiting channels, forums, etc a small bit of them might be vampiric, but most are seeking that fiction aspect. <Ravena> But I'm not sure if it's because the topic is more popular or it's just because the media is focusing more on it. <Isealdor> I think it's both, Ravena <Ravena> Like how plane crashes aren't as common as car crashes but plane crashes make it to the news. <Isealdor> I’d say I’m somewhere between neutral to hesistantly positive. I think there are some good things that could come out of all of it, but I think we also stand to just be the newest passing fad, and everything will blow over and little will be changed or someone will say or do something that overwhelms any possible positive things we’ve gotten from the attention. <cynsanity> We've already got the attention, Isealdor. <Lono> (6) You are at the mercy of video editors... that’s the problem... <xeurika> For better or worse, the media tends to act like a soccer (football) game with 5 year olds. As disgusting as some of the Tyra Banks shows et. al. can be, it does get the mob mentality of some of the more serious media chasing our direction IMO see the ABCNews.com & the Washington Post articles. <Lono> All broadcast news Xeurika is targeted at a 1st grade reading level... so I can believe it. <SapphoWolf> This is nothing new. "Vampire" is a loaded word. <SapphoWolf> Nevermind the inherent sex appeal... <Isealdor> They're feeding off of each other.. it's popular because the media is touting it, and the media is pushing it because it's popular. <AcrophobicPixie> The one thing about all of this that's been worrying me is that there are new donors-to-be who think they MUST put a physical description in their donor ad, because they want to be a fangbanger, or think that it's expected to give sex with the blood/energy. <AncientKhan> Another "fangbanger" reference? I'm going to get a glass of wine. I'll be back in a minute.... <cynsanity> AcrophobicPixie: Please bash into their head that not every vampire enjoys sexual stuff whilst feeding. <Isealdor> AcrophobicPixie: That goes the other way, too...vampires looking for a donor without sex are going to face the exact same issue. <AcrophobicPixie> I mean, if that mentality was as prevalent 8-10 years ago when I was first starting out, my brother would have had kittens at the thought of me being a donor. <M_Belanger> 6. Documentary-style shows are overall better exposure for the community as opposed to talk shows. Talk shows, by their nature, demand a certain level of sensationalism. We have worked long and hard to earn enough credibility to appear on more serious shows. <M_Belanger> True Blood and Twilight both have potentially dangerous repercussions when it comes to individuals wanting to be donors. <Anshar> Michelle: Totally agree. <M_Belanger> Nearly all of the fiction explores the sexual side of the vampire, and that edgy, forbidden sexuality has a widespread appeal. <M_Belanger> Unfortunately, when it's targeted to tweens, it puts real vampires in the very uncomfortable position of having to deal with 13-15 year old girls who stumble on real vampire sites online, looking for a real-life Edward. <cynsanity> Michelle is right. <Isealdor> Michelle: I'm hoping that the majority will wander off once they find out that the reality isnt glittery bodies in the sunlight. <xeurika> Exactly Michelle, and when it's minors it exposes us to all kinds of crap. <Camazotz> The Irish documentary show said they wanted to treat things sensitively... then put every word, term etc. in inverted commas... the media has no intention of treating us the way we WISH to be, just varying degrees of badness. <Camazotz> Less bad does not equate to good. <Anshar> I think something to consider is that people who feed on energy (especially those who aren't self-aware) are going to have personality archetypes that focus attention onto them. For at least the energy feeders there's going to be an intrinsic amount of drama. <xeurika> This vampire vogue in the media and most things in the media as a whole tend to be fads. The question is do we try to interject our views into the mix, and how can we craft a coherent message to the media while the spotlight is our way IMO? <SapphoWolf> Haven't vampires been a common interest for a little too long to be a fad? <xeurika> Well the interest has existed for ages, but it comes and goes in cycles. <Isealdor> Things like the BDSM mix in the Vamprya things dont help, either. <cynsanity> Anshar: What do you mean by "I think something to consider is that people who feed on energy (especially those who aren't self-aware) are going to have personality archetypes that focus attention onto them"? <Anshar> I mean that with metaphysical energy the idea is that thought and emotion can direct energy. That would be why visualization techniques work. If that is the case then the structure of a person's mind has to be a possible factor in vampirism. If a person doesn't feed intentionally, then they must feed unintentionally. I'm cogitating on what the effects on that passive feeding personality would be. A desire for attention / schizotypal personality is a strong possibility here <cynsanity> Anshar: A shizotypal personality due to... not feeding consciously? <Anshar> Cynsanity: A schizotypal personality as a result of needing the attentive energy of others since there's no awareness of another feeding method. Living organisms are form-follows-function. <Anshar> Cynsanity: If a person needs something but can't get it intentionally, then the personality will adapt through positive reinforcement to get its attentive energy another way. <cynsanity> Anshar: Wouldn't a narcissistic or histrionic personality also fit the criteria? <Anshar> Bingo. <Anshar> Exactly. <Anshar> Cynsanity: This could explain why drama is so prevalant along with so many signs of Schizotypal Personality in the community. <Anshar> Any one of those could be a reaction to unconscious feeding. <SapphoWolf> So many of my students came back to school after the weekend..."I want to MARRY Edward Cullen!" Yikes... <M_Belanger> I've got a stack of fanmail from tweens that is alarmingly graphic in what they'd like a vampire for. <cynsanity> We had a steady influx of girls searching for their "Edward" on the VCMB when the books became popular. <NyteMuse> Are they expecting you to be the vampire matchmaker or something? <M_Belanger> Sometimes the matchmaker, sometimes the vampire. * SapphoWolf teethed on Chelsea Quinn Yarbro and Whitley Strieber and Poppy Z. Brite... <M_Belanger> Yarbro is such a sweet lady! <SapphoWolf> She is, and her books are feasts <M_Belanger> At least her vampire is someone people can emulate without getting arrested! <SapphoWolf> Long live Saint-Germain <AcrophobicPixie> NyteMuse: Someone expects me to play match maker. <sarasvati> *chuckle* The books aren't really good until the third one anyway... 13-15yo wanting to be donors was an issue we had to address on VCMB as well... if they couldn't find Edward, than any ol' vamp would do. <Merticus> Who here has received e-mail lately along the lines of something you'd expect someone to say to you after watching Twilight? <M_Belanger> But the age group is what has me most concerned. <M_Belanger> ::raises hand:: * Anshar raises hand * AcrophobicPixie raises hand * sarasvati reaises her hand... heck the email as "Twilightfanatic18" <sarasvati> I giggled when the first line was "I'm not a Twilight fanatic or anything, but... *insert myth question here*" * Sylvere: no mail <Sylvere> I'm sure I'll get my share of "fans" when/if this Pitch article comes out. * Isealdor raises about 100 hands * NyteMuse is happily in the no-scary-fanmail camp * cynsanity raises hand (surprisingly) <SapphoWolf> "What about your skin? Do you sparkle?" <Lono> The problem is, some of us was to stay hidden in the shadows...our lively hood demands that we blend in... but we are passing our voice off to those that may not be the best spokespersons but are looking for 15 minutes of fame... they tend to do the most damage. <Camazotz> I *think* everyone knows what I felt about certain media outings. <Camazotz> The Washington Post article... it wasn't horrible, BUT I didn't get everyone's bandwagon ecstacy either. <Imon> We ask people to give a reason they'd like to join our real vampire forum...we get some doozies. <Imon> We even put a statement about Twilight seekers on our forum description. <Isealdor> Imon: same here <SapphoWolf> Interesting...how many of us have encountered a personality disorder at some time this week? <Isealdor> I've seen probably a double in number of applications to the forums. <Isealdor> Several SapphoWolf; but that's not actually unusual for the groups I get. <Isealdor> A few of my people started denying applications that had the word "Twilight" in them anywhere. <M_Belanger> The media is our 300 pound gorilla. <M_Belanger> They know we exist. We cannot simply refuse media inquiries -- though I feel that we have a responsibility to pick and choose which ones we do answer wisely. * AncientKhan agrees with Michelle <Camazotz> Indeed Michelle ... it's making the wise choice. <NyteMuse> I agree with Michelle...if we don't do it, Vampyra will <Sylvere> NyteMuse: Exactly <Camazotz> and even then being able to be honest about what the results were <M_Belanger> My publisher -- or the head publicist there -- got pretty hot under the collar when he learned that I turned down Tyra Banks & Maury Povich. <M_Belanger> But I do not feel that shows of their caliber can add anything useful to the dialogue we have been trying to build with the media. <SapphoWolf> Publishers can be...er...necessary evils? :) <SapphoWolf> Pimp yourself for profit...what an industry. <Anshar> Michelle: I can imagine. You could have sold books by appearing on them. <M_Belanger> I could have. I knew that. I still didn't do it. <M_Belanger> I have a bigger responsibility to the community and how it is presented than I do to numbers. * Sylvere wishes Michelle had done Maury & Tyra instead of the nutters they each got. <NyteMuse> I'm with Sylvere, sort of. <SapphoWolf> Well Michelle, I applaud you heartily. <NyteMuse> Even if the media is going to do a hackjob on edits, at the very least we can keep their job from getting TOO easy. <cynsanity> Could we do a documentary by ourselves? <NyteMuse> Cynsanity: Small scale, probably, but the money needed to really get it out there is beyond our resources, I think. <xeurika> I agree that we should pick and choose which one we do, but also must live with the fact that freakshows will always have an easy time finding freaks to perform. Not much we can do about it. <Lono> Live TV shows might be the best... depending on the question and on stage performace of the person. <Camazotz> Meet them on your own terms.... what worries me is the idea of people rolling over and displaying their belly. <Ravena> Well, PR is just that, not sure we can point fingers at others because they do talk shows and we don't. <Ravena> Still out there in public. <Isealdor> There are always going to be the nutcases out in the media. <Isealdor> That's part of what the media actively looks for. <AcrophobicPixie> What about the thing with Good Morning America? Is that still in the works? <Anshar> Speaking for myself, I did the interview (FOX’s Hannity’s America) because I think that there HAS to be a counteracting force to all that garbage. <Anshar> We do nothing and it will only get worse and worse. <SapphoWolf> I contacted Good Morning America but haven't heard anything. <cynsanity> I think we really have to consider media appearances as something that has become important. <M_Belanger> I'm not pointing fingers -- but given the persona I have in the media as the academic/expert who is also a part of the community, those talk shows would have only torn down some of the credibility I have fought so hard to earn. <Sylvere> We can't afford to be paranoid of the media any more. <Anshar> Michelle: Agreed. <Camazotz> I'm glad you didn't do them Michelle. <sarasvati> *nods* if the sane ones don't the crazies will.. and then all the world will see is crazy. <Isealdor> I dont think we can just take the whole "go back to being underground" route, either... even if we dont go out actively and do the media things, people will still come find us because of the nutcase media things. * Sylvere agrees with Isealdor <Anshar> Michelle: If you have any credibility, you HAVE to hold onto it, or the voice becomes useless. <AcrophobicPixie> Well, if Good Morning America goes through, you know the Today show will follow shortly, if not try to get to it first. <M_Belanger> The media has become important. It's not going away. We need to address it intelligently and, as much as feasible, as a community. Sticking our heads in the sand and hoping the queries go away -- when some of those queries come from things like Good Morning America -- is naive and overall destructive to our image. <xeurika> If the media is interested in writing a story, they'll do it with or without us, and I think it is wise if we try to have our say. <AncientKhan> I have to pose the question: If we think media is so important, what are we really gaining by this? <Isealdor> AncientKhan: Like I said earlier, the main thing I'm hoping is that it will bring a bit of interest from some different communities, namely the medical and psych communities, and we might have a better shot at getting some real research done. <AncientKhan> If we want that kind of attention, Isealdor, why not just write the Howard Hughes Institute and ask them to do DNA testing, instead of hoping folks like them might eventually get interested? <Isealdor> Because companies and groups like that usually want to know there is enough of a population and demand for it, Khan <Sylvere> Isealdor: There's a psych study in the works. I participated. <Isealdor> Sylvere: Which? Run by whom? <Merticus> B.J. Kuehl's work. <Sylvere> Isleador: Dr. Barbara J. Kuehl of University of Wisconsin <Merticus> We're routinly working with universities on a variety of social and scientific based inquiry - it's just so happens that the media often is the intial catalyst to get them to pay attention or spur interest based on the public's reaction, etc. <SapphoWolf> I have a researcher at the University of Pennsylvania who wants to scan my brain during asserted vampiric activity. <Sylvere> SapphoWolf: Cool, go for it <zilchy> SapphoWolf: Brilliant, I'd do it. <AcrophobicPixie> Really, SapphWolf? That'd be spiffy. <NyteMuse> SapphoWolf: Neat <sarasvati> Dang, thats right... I need to get into contact with Dr. Kuehl again... she is almost litterally right aroud the corner from me. <Sylvere> I think BJ is done collecting data. She should be working on analysis now. <Anshar> Go for it SapphoWolf. <xeurika> That is very interesting SapphoWolf, I've wanted that for a while. Are they using an fMRI or PET? <SapphoWolf> fMRI for starters <Isealdor> SapphoWolf: Can you keep us all updated on that? <SapphoWolf> I'm planning on it… she's trustworthy and frankly I'm as fascinated by it as anybody. <xeurika> Yeah, it's one of those things where anything they find or don't find will be interesting SapphoWolf. <SapphoWolf> Well, we know that the brain reacts to thought and sensation... it's how those associate with vampirism that we're looking for. <NyteMuse> So then how do we get someone on the sane side who COULD do the talkshows without losing that sort of credability? <Sylvere> The only way out is through. <SapphoWolf> Because we can put ourselves forward as intelligent and rational beings. <cynsanity> The problem is, we need to find a balance between what the media wants and what we want. <Ravena> I'm not critizing that you didn't do them Michelle, it was a good move I think. <Ravena> But you have a niche, the rest of those vamps, likely don't. <Ravena> You do the talks and write the books and such. <Ravena> And the talk shows is all the PR they can get lol. <SapphoWolf> The media need not be an enemy. <Camazotz> If we don't identify with the "crazies" then why worry? I don't get riled up everytime I see a drunken Irish NYC cop in a drama show, just because I'm Irish too. <Sylvere> Cama: For the same reason Italians protest the Italian = Mafia stereotype <AcrophobicPixie> Yeah, cause you don't see Don Henrie on the serious documentaries, yet you see Michelle in them, so that has to show for something. <sarasvati> True, Camazotz, but if every show has only drunkend Irish NYC cops... thats all people start thinking there is...and so when they met a sober Irish NYC cop... they don't believe it at all. <Isealdor> Camazotz: Because they're going to affect us whether we identify with them or not. <Camazotz> If people will only believe what they see on TV...... <sarasvati> Sad, but true... people do tend to only believe what they see on TV... <Lono> I'm more than happy to do written works... but I really do not have a good stage presence at this time. <NyteMuse> Same as Lono. I'll happily put my name out for print or audio, but no photos or video. <xeurika> Radio or print I'm down for, but for now I'm not doing video or photos as well. <NyteMuse> Don Henrie was on one of the serious documentaries. <SapphoWolf> I'm not all that familiar with Don Henrie... <xeurika> I agree with most of that Michelle, but I think the media's gaze will shift with the next shiny thing it finds, so it is best to do our best while the attention is our way. <Ravena> Don was in some of the same ones as Michelle. <Ravena> There's even one with Michelle and Don doing a ritual together. <Ravena> And he's one of the Urn's videos. <Ravena> The media association is there. <M_Belanger> Let's not turn it into knock Don -- that wasn't my intention. He has an image, but since there's a lot more flash to it, it is the sort of image that appeals to shows like Tyra Banks. I just don't know if that's an image that we as a community want to promote. <cynsanity> We should focus on what we want to do resp. achieve with the media. <M_Belanger> I prefer that we be taken seriously not sensationally. <NyteMuse> I'd rather Don than Vampyra. <Lono> I'd rather Don than Vampyra" same here NyteMuse... but I agree that at this time and development of the community, maybe the whole coffin thing, isn’t that appropriate and may drive us back into the Jerry Springer days..(not to slam Don - he has been one of the few level headed voices out there).. I just didnt agree with his choice for Maury. <Camazotz> we can only be responsible for our OWN actions <Camazotz> Do what is right or not for yourself <Anshar> On the other hand, no sensationalism and not enough interest for the spreading of information. <M_Belanger> I think there is a balance one can achieve when one has a work or product to promote but is also perceived as representing a community <cynsanity> Hey, guys, it's fine to talk about what has already been done. We should focus on what we can or want to do in the future. <sarasvati> Oh! That would be nice! <Camazotz> True Cynsanity <Camazotz> Though we are all in different positions... with various motives and agendas of our own. <NyteMuse> Well, Cynsanity, what can we do? I mean, I think we've been doing a lot of work in trying to make ourselves accessible to drown out the freaks? <M_Belanger> Study history. Find identity groups that have similar situations and see how they handled or mishandled the media exposure when it came to them. <M_Belanger> Learn from their successes & mistakes. <NyteMuse> Ugh... homework <Merticus> Absolutely <Anshar> If we can't learn from the mistakes of others we are doomed to repeat them. <xeurika> Indeed <Sylvere> We need more people willing to stand in front of a camera. <AncientKhan> Agreed. Didn't we agree to set up a database of reputable media types? <Camazotz> Frankly, there's a part of me that thinks that until such times as the general populace actually believes in vampirism, then distancing ourselves from those we don't want to be associated with within that is a moot point <M_Belanger> The two groups that have been most useful for me to take cues from are the Wiccan/Pagan community & the GBLT community. <M_Belanger> And looking at how the media discovered them initially treated them & how their "elders" (or activists) responded back can give us valuable clues for our own dealings with the media. <Anshar> Same. Good metaphors in different ways. <Anshar> And they're on different steps of the same path <Lono> Same <NyteMuse> All right. Given that (the history thing), is there anyone who might be willing to take responsibility for looking into a particular community and making a report on it, thus educating the rest of us? <SapphoWolf> NyteMuse: Sure, history being my thing and all. <Anshar> So you can compare different parts more readily. <NyteMuse> Splitting up the areas could yield some better results. <zilchy> However showing the diversity we enjoy is also a good thing. * Isealdor agrees with Michelle - I often look at the LGBT and the paranormal/ghost hunting communities. <AcrophobicPixie> Like what groups are we going to look into, outside of the GBLT community? <M_Belanger> Khan asked what do we get out of it? <M_Belanger> There's a basic thing of what we don't get out of it, if we respond to the media. <M_Belanger> We ::don't:: get any idiot who wants 5 minutes of fame hopping on TV and presenting him/herself as one of us and spreading misinformation that will ultimately confuse not only people outside of our community, but people inside as well. <M_Belanger> The lesson has more to do with the reclaiming of the word "witch." <M_Belanger> As recently as the 1950s, "witch" was still a figure from folklore, or from Christian mythology -- a woman who had made a pact with the Devil to achieve extraordinary powers <M_Belanger> Yet a community of people chose to self-identify as witches, choosing their own interpretation of the word, which was a deviation from the folkloric archetype the mainstream had been exposed to. <M_Belanger> Sound familiar? <Camazotz> If people are inside our "community" they should know better.. if we're going to be worried about misinformation it's time to tackle the false elders and demi-gods. <zilchy> Camazotz: Agreed <xeurika> I think we can also learn from how political parties use the media. Staying "on message" and such. <Isealdor> To a lesser degress, the BDSM community, too, since a lot of general "kink" things have become popular. <NyteMuse> I'm not saying one person has to look at every group, but if 1-5 people wanted to give little reports on the LGBT community, and another 1-5 did the Pagan community, lather rinse repeat... could be a lot simpler than getting 30+ VVC members to independently research. <SapphoWolf> Off the top of your heads... can you name an "other" group that started out rocky in the media but eventually came to be accepted? <Lono> I remember that the time Buffy came out both the vampire and wiccan/pagan communities were all in a tiff.. vampires for obvious reasons, but wiccans for the whole influx of "willow" wiccans. <AncientKhan> Another question: Because Pagans and Wiccans choose their path, are we sure we want to try and follow their steps? <cynsanity> With the difference that liking to have sex with a partner of your own gender is a bit different than drinking human blood, or sucking life energy from them. <zilchy> Khan - Yes, in a way. <zilchy> It's still a "different" path. <Merticus> The Pagan and Wiccan community is as much similar and it is dissimilar from our own community in that respect. <Isealdor> Michelle: We might not want that, but it's going to happen regardless. <Isealdor> We've already seen it with ones like Vampyra. <SapphoWolf> Personally I find greater tolerance of ideas in the VC... <SapphoWolf> I said greater...I didn't say mind-numbingly overwhelming. <NyteMuse> SapphoWolf, I see that being a dangerous leaning towards almost being TOO naïve. <Anshar> Khan: that's why it's a metaphor. GLBT assert that it's not a choice. Where one metaphor fails you extend into the next. * Sylvere is still kicking herself for letting Vampyra get on TV <Ravena> Letting? Did she give you a chance to make it so she wouldn't? <Sylvere> Ravena: I was the first person WEtv contacted for that show. When I turned it down, they went with Vampyra. <NyteMuse> Probably... I just get concerned when someone on a forum makes a claim that seems to completely stretch the bounds of belief and no one comments. <SapphoWolf> That's a good habit <Anshar> Khan: No metaphor is going to be completely apt, that's why were' looking into multiple elements. <Camazotz> GLBT can at least offer some PROOF more than we can. <Anshar> Camazotz: Attraction is a behavior. <Anshar> Camazotz: What "proof" do they have? <NyteMuse> Camazotz: How can LGBT offer proof? <AncientKhan> Understood. My only issue is what we're willing to sacrifice to meet that kind of gain that is accepted amongst thre predominance of our kind. <xeurika> Remember when we can sway the definitions by what we say in the media, look at how Republicans in the U.S. were able to change the definitions of many words like "liberal". * Anshar nods <SapphoWolf> Xeurika is exactly right. <Camazotz> Well a gay man can more easily show gay actions than a psi can prove they are feeding. <Anshar> Camazotz: Both things are behaviors, but I understand what you're driving at. <NyteMuse> Perhaps, but homosexual actions can also be faked as easily as vampiric actions. <Anshar> Camazotz: you're saying that sex is an observable phenomena whereas metaphysical energy is not. <AcrophobicPixie> Yeah, but Camazotz, they are physically made to have sex with a member of the opposite sex, and vamps are made to eat regular food, the psi/sang feeding and gay sex are things that aren't of the norm. <Anshar> Camazotz: But, it IS only a metaphor. <Camazotz> Indeed Anshar... you're correct. <Isealdor> I think rather than trying to stop or complaining about any information we dont want put out, we just need to make sure there is all information out there. <Merticus> It's all about perception and timing. <xeurika> Yep <Lono> The only problem is when people start being too PC and convincing others that "blood is a metaphor". <AncientKhan> Amen, Lono <M_Belanger> And yet to a conservative Christian, gay is still a choice -- and not only that, a willful choice to sin. <M_Belanger> Most anti-gay groups base their hatred on the notion that gay is unnatural, and not something one might be born being. <Ravena> If we are setting out to prove anything, I think we will spin our wheels for pretty much forever. * Isealdor agrees with Ravena * NyteMuse agrees with Michelle <Isealdor> I dont think anything can be "proven". Just added as something for people to consider <M_Belanger> And that's also something to consider for us. Skeptics and critics of our community will see our self-identification as vampires as a similar choice. <Merticus> b. Representation & Coming Out Of The Coffin - A Five-Part Question: (1) What messages and goals, if any, should the vampire community and representatives who appear in the public press attempt to convey or promote to the general public? (2) When a representative, or someone on their own accord, choose to go public about vampirism what expectations and standards should be expected of them and what types of <Merticus> information would the majority of the community most likely consider appropriate for public consumption? Take a moment to examine both sides of the “In or Out of the Coffin Debate”. (3) What are some of the advantages of widespread public recognition of real vampirism and self-identifying real vampires in relation to both vampires and the vampire community? <Merticus> (4) What are some of the disadvantages to publicly revealing one’s nature and the potential impact or repercussions on the larger vampire community? (5) As both members and leaders of the vampire community do you think it’s possible to find a middle-ground that would satisfy public and community interests while addressing the desire for others to remain private or “underground” in the vampire community? If so, how? <Lady Slinky> b. (1) I would prefer that we not promote to the general public. Having said that I understand that I and the rest of the community who would rather we not go public do not have a choice in the matter and as such all I can really do is try to support those that are the least of all evils so to speak. <Lady Slinky> I would like to see those who choose to become involved in the media stress the diversity of the community and the fact that they can only really speak for themselves and from their personal experience. I would like to see less of our internal affairs being aired to the public. Comments like "sangs think of psivamps as delusional and psis think of sangs as <Lady Slinky> any of the following: delusional, posers, unevolved" are outdated and only serve to continue rubbing salt into wounds. I would say by far the majority of sangs do not believe that psivamps are delusional these days. <Lady Slinky> I would like to see the community portrayed as educated intelligent people who are able to hold down careers and contribute positively to society not as teenagers who desperately needed to fit in while rebelling and never grew out of it. <Lady Slinky> b. (2) I feel it is futile to expect anything about the standards of information that independent bodies present to the media. We have no authority over anyone and thus no control over what they do. I personally cannot speak to what the majority of the community would find acceptable. The closest thing that could possibly speak for the <Lady Slinky> majority would be the survey (Vampire & Energy Work Research Survey) and even then some would question if it really represents the majority of the community. <Lady Slinky> b. (3) It depends entirely on what they are recognizing as "real vampirism". I guess for most it is the possibility that we will someday be taken seriously or the illusion that we will be accepted if we are known. <Lady Slinky> I would hope that it would lead to more credible research into our condition by those with the knowledge and ability to help us however the trend towards metaphysical explanations to the masses to make us more pc will probably thwart that goal. <Lady Slinky> b. (4) The disadvantages of becoming public are many and varied. Hate crimes, Discrimination, the loss of income, family and children are just a few of the real dangers of going public. The impact on the community varies drastically depending on who is going public and how. <Lady Slinky> By far the majority of people who have chosen to go public have in my opinion only served to have a negative impact on community making us look like mass murdering delusional teens or egomaniacal nutcases. <Lady Slinky> b. (5) I thought that's what we were doing with the websites and forums. Those interested can come seeking and find information. This means those who can and most likely will accept it are the ones who receive the information. "Education" of the masses means your giving information to all the wrong people too. <Mairi> b. (1-2) If we chose a representative or two to speak on behalf of the VC to the media I feel that they need to be able to speak for the entire community so they Must be well versed in how every facet of how our community feels. <Mairi> So we have to pick a representative from every voice to get together with the designated Media representative so they can get their message straight. If we chose a representative or group of representatives then the media would know who to believe (least ways this is how I feel). I would cut down on those who just wanted to make a living from being a vampire. <Mairi> b. (3-5) I mean if we are just like everyone else, what’s there to make a living on what we are. I also believe we need to take in the concerns of those who would rather we didn't come out of the coffin. And there are many of us - myself included. <Mairi> I’m on the fence with this. I can see the benefits of both. I've lost my son and the right to see my grandson's because I went public.....so as I said I can see both sides and because of that I am divided. <Perce Coeur> b. (1) I suppose the most important thing is to show to the public we are not freaks. I mean we are humans, we (well most of us) have a stable life and we are able to talk and explain our personal views wisely, calmly. Then, we can show how opened we are to share information, the more people ask questions the less they will be afraid of us. <Perce Coeur> b. (2) The wideness of the community is a main problem there (well in a way). I mean there are so many different persons that you can't always control what everyone is going to say to the public. Like in politics, you have to vote for someone of your party to become your leader and for him to talk for everybody else of the party. <Perce Coeur> I suppose you all will agree it is impossible to do within the vampire community. So let people talk, we just can't help it, besides, that is just freedom of speech. <Perce Coeur> b. (3) I suppose the main advantage of this recognition is to open people minds. Make them smell the wind of change. Make them realize that there are a lot of small communities growing underground and it is just getting bigger and bigger. They have to get aware of it as soon as possible in order to understand it instead of being afraid of it. <Perce Coeur> b. (4) The disadvantage would be that people don't understand who we are and begin another witch hunt. <Perce Coeur> b. (5) If we begin to explain things to the public and they are interested in who we are, we can't just close the door. It's a question of choice. I don't think there can be a middle-ground... <RavenHarte> b. (1) That vampyres actually have ethics, moral values. Being a vampyre doesn’t mean a person has no honor. That’s usually the big fear so why not just dispense with that right away. <RavenHarte> b. (2) Anyone representing the whole needs to RESPECT the whole. This means researching the ideas of the many, educating themselves fully, and not looking only in your own backyard. Anyone representing the whole needs to remember that what they say will be taken by those outside the community as true for EVERYONE in your community, no matter how many times you say "this is MY perspective". <RavenHarte> So get as much general consensus under your belt as you can. The community then has to make them accountable too though. If someone like Vampyra gets to shoot her mouth off unchecked by anyone, she'll just do it again. <RavenHarte> Take them to task if you aren’t happy with what someone said was true about all vamps. You can’t say anything about what they said was their opinion or personal preference of course, but you can damned well make them think twice about speaking as the authority on everyone if enough express displeasure. <RavenHarte> b. (3) I said this in response to the Washington Post article by Monica Hesse: My personal view is that ANY TIME a fringe community can get some positive press, they should take it. Not because you want to somehow "fit in" with the rest of society, I mean if any of us wanted that we wouldn’t be who we are, where we are, doing <RavenHarte> what we do. You take the positive press because it means maybe the next time someone's child custody is challenged just because they are a vampire, the judge makes a better decision, or maybe the next time your local group wants to do a function, the choice venues aren't worried there's gonna be blood on the floor or carnage when you're finished and so actually let you rent their space. <RavenHarte> b. (4) If the person revealing themselves hasn’t educated themselves, isn’t able to field questions well, or is way over the top you will get misinformation out there which affects the greater Vampire Community (VC) because newbies will buy into it. Vampyra has led some poor schlep out there to setting his friends on fire to raise energy, I just know it. And people like Sharkey just keep law enforcement looking at you. <RavenHarte> b. (5) No it’s not possible. The public WANT for something "outside reality" will always fuel a want for more from the VC, and by more I mean MORE sensational, MORE flamboyant, just more - that means those who want the VC to remain out of the public eye will always be pissed. <RavenHarte> Not to mention the VC is SO diverse, without a unifying anything, that no one is ever going to be a satisfactory representative for ALL within the community, as I'm sure Michelle Belanger knows all too well. <SphynxCatVP> b. (1) People will *usually* fear that which they don't understand. It is my personal belief that playing to those fears, and the archetype, while beneficial as a smoke screen for the non flamboyant members of the community, isn't the best approach in the long run. I believe any message being conveyed should be done so with particular care taken to body language, dress/hygiene, and choice of words. <SphynxCatVP> Anyone appearing nervous on screen will only confuse the verbal message. <SphynxCatVP> b. (2) No matter who the representative is, all the information being presented should have some grounding in reality without seeming too far-fetched for the average joe to grasp. Blooddrinking aspects are easier to address, there are physical components to the activities that anyone can see. <SphynxCatVP> It's harder for the average person to grasp a lot of energy work concepts because most people either haven't been raised with exposure to the concepts or don't believe in it (for organized religious or other reasons). <SphynxCatVP> I'm not saying that energy work and related vampiric concepts shouldn't be brought up. Just that special care will need to be taken to put the concepts (and any demonstrations) in ways that the audience will understand. And hopefully without any resulting fear of "ZOMG they can steal my energy without my knowing it!" <SphynxCatVP> I would say that the public consumption should consist of just the more basic aspects until such time as the general populace can prove they won't totally freak out over anything they see as weird. <SphynxCatVP> b. (3) Those who are closeted real vampires can more easily find information that they need as opposed to just being exposed to fictional concepts. And that the word "vampire" doesn't always bring to mind "Count Dracula" or other fictional stereotype vampires anymore. :) <SphynxCatVP> b. (4) That community members who are in the coffin (due to family, work or other reasons) may get their vampirism dragged into view - possibly lose their job, lose their kids in custody battles, etc. This is a concern for any "beyond the norm" activity (especially in conservative areas!) not just vampirism, and I think a lot of people forget that. <SphynxCatVP> b. (5) I am tempted to say yes, but honestly? I just don't know. People need to be more unified, I think, before they can figure out a middle ground - what is middle ground for one person is too extreme for another. <Wreckmaster> b. I am personally against this WHOLE idea. I feel the world is NOT ready for us. They can not handle us. And I do not want them to fear us. When large groups of people get scared, they try to remove the source of the fear. I do not want killed, beat, or imprisoned, because of my metaphysical alteration. The media will destroy us, given the chance. <Wreckmaster> The world can not handle us. Not yet. I feel we NEED to keep to ourselves. Some folks, who can handle the information, will seek us out. We can open up to them. But, we do not need to advertise ourselves. <Zero> b. (1) i. We're a minority group who is actively involved in advocating for the health, safety, and rights of our people. ii. We are a community of individuals, and individual viewpoints are important to us - no one of us speaks for all of us. iii. We are interested in understanding our condition more thoroughly. <Zero> Most media spots make it look like we either know all about vampirism and are keeping it mostly secret, or like we don't want to be confronted with the holes in the story, like we're a belief-based cult or something. I'd like our appearances to convey that we are experiencing and perceiving reality and we'd like answers as much as the next guy. <Zero> b. (2) i. You are challenging the Muggles' assumptions (blood is bad, fiction doesn't inform reality, everyone wants to be like everyone else..) and asking them to change their perception of reality. ONE concept at a time. Don't become the clogdancing vampire skydiver advocate for plural marriage and BDSM. Please remember that while many of us have diverse interests, the TV is not capable of portraying a renaissance man. You get <Zero> one shot to get shoved into one box with each appearance. Please don't make it the "crazy" box. ii. The vampire community's primary goals are and always have been the health and safety of its members and their loved ones. That rarely comes out in media spots. <Zero> We are making ourselves visible for the sake of those who are not visible, to promote right action, right information, and right attitude. Remember that. iii. There's an old Jewish proverb - Those with the loudest voice have to be careful of what they say. You are speaking for an at-risk minority and your words will be taken to speak for the whole. Remember that, too. <Merticus> b. They should be actively working to dispel the stereotypes, advocate safety, and acknowledge the diversity of our collective experiences. Personally, the information I distribute to the media or academics interested in our community is the statistical responses from over 700 of you who took the time to answer the Vampire & Energy Work Research Surveys (VEWRS & AVEWRS). <Merticus> I can’t, won’t, and don’t claim to speak for everyone and this is why I continue to place value on tools such as these as most effective at being able to convey the beliefs and practices of the widest range of vampires and community participants. I believe in the right for those who wish to make themselves public in a responsible manner as do I respect the right for those who <Merticus> remain underground and keep hidden their identity as vampires from society. While I don’t think we’ll all agree on the best course of action in addressing the media and the desires of members in our community one way or the other on this issue; I do think if we consistently put forth a sane and rational message to media over a period of time both interests may in time be served. <AcrophobicPixie> They should promote that we are normal people, but just a little bit out of the definition of the “norm”. That vampires aren’t like the characters in books that are popular, and that donors and other “swans” aren’t just out for hot monkey vamp sex. <AcrophobicPixie> I would prefer for them to dress normally. Definitely not anything that could be considered Goth or the like. Tasteful, like what you’d wear to a business meeting or job interview. They should discuss the safety measures that we put into effect (blood testing, the contracts a lot of people use, etc) so that people know that we’re not just going around randomly attacking people. On the negative, I’d prefer it if people would leave. <Camazotz> I think if we are going to do media it should be based upon careful research of those we will be conversing with. I agree that some people make better "representatives" than others, however would add that we are such a diverse group that no-one will ever perfectly represent anyone other than themselves. <AncientKhan> I would think the point of us dealing with them should be the common goal that we wanted to be treated with the same respect the mainstream wants for themselves. But when we stoop to their level, we serve no good to our kind, and set our primary cause back by trying to make them understand things they don't want to. <zilchy> Then we need multiple representatives, don't we? <M_Belanger> We MUST have a Sang representative. <M_Belanger> Camera-ready. <AncientKhan> So, any ideas who would make a good sang rep? <Anshar> Coming "out" is more of a personal choice than it is one that affects our entire society (if you can call it that). I think it's important that people separate associated concepts and are willing to say "not everyone agrees" or "my personal take on it is" if people express opinions or personal beliefs as fact that's when it hurts all of us. Then it becomes misinformation. <Camazotz> Well, I am playing devil's advocate here.... but I was just thinking that someone like Don Henrie represents image of probably a larger/equally large cross-section as Anshar does looking dashing in a suit... though I prefer to see Anshar in the suit any day. <Camazotz> And if we're going that route... what KIND of sang representative? <Camazotz> ie: Khan is not sang like others... does a predominantly sang who operates hybrid like myself fit? <Anshar> Cama: but, admittedly, I wear a suit every day. That's my "normal" dress. <zilchy> Camazotz: Yeah I get people telling me that I'm unbelievable because "u don't look like no vampyre". <Anshar> So I don't have much of a crate to stand on as far as Don's fashion goes. <Camazotz> heehee, I know Anshar, that wasn't my point :p <Camazotz> Just that we are diverse. <AcrophobicPixie> I, for one, wouldn't mind being a rep for my niche, but I'd need a makeover for sure. That, and I'd have to gauge how people in my hometown would handle it, let alone my two sisters that aren't involved in the community, and how it'd affect them. <AcrophobicPixie> I'll pull out my contacts... see if any sangs from my old house would be willing. <Ravena> I'm not really for dictating to someone what they can and cannot wear because they are vampires and might make the community look bad. <cynsanity> (1) Goals: Acceptance of the vampiric condition - not as in "can I take a day off, haven't fed in a while and am twoofy", but at least that the sciences start getting interested in us. <cynsanity> Debunking myths and misconceptions. <cynsanity> Portraying us in a realistic way - we're just people, at the end of the day. <cynsanity> Messages: We're not dangerous or psychotic. <cynsanity> (2) They should know about the basic "types" of vampires and be able to write and pronounce the terms correctly, as well as defining them to a 'mundane' audience. <cynsanity> They should be able to convey that we don't have hard facts, just personal experience to go by, and present different viewpoints accurately. <cynsanity> They should be able to explain the main theories about vampirism eloquently, and they should have done enough research to be able to do so. <cynsanity> (2) They should not give out information that goes in-depth about how feeding works - we personally don't entirely understand it resp. can't entirely explain it, no reason to upen us up needlessly. <cynsanity> They should not brag about abilities and powers - if they have to be mentioned, doing so in a calm, collected, scientifically minded way would be best, acknowledging where doubt as to a connection to the vampiric condition is appropriate and/or alternative theories could explain the matter at hand. <cynsanity> (3) What are some of the advantages of widespread public recognition of real vampirism and self-identifying real vampires in relation to both vampires and the vampire community? <cynsanity> (3) You get "Ah, you're one of THOSE freaks..." instead of "Huh?" now. <cynsanity> Ideally: Possibility to have vampirism recognised as a special condition in regards to work. But that's wishful thinking. <cynsanity> (4) Work. Employment. Trust issues. Disease scare. <cynsanity> To the VC as a whole: More ridicule. <Anshar> Cynsanity: Discrimination <cynsanity> (5) As I said before, a documentary catering to both media interest and the interest of those who wish to be portrayed in a less flashy manner. No one has to be outed. People who participate in media things have to realise that they're opening themselves up for scrutiny, by the general public as well as the OVC. It should remain one's personal choice whether to 'come out of the coffin' or not. <Sylvere> Any representative should promote the following concepts: <Sylvere> The vampire community is diverse. We don’t all walk around in capes and fangs. Some of us dress like soccer moms and some like bankers. Some of us are BDSM fetishists and some couldn’t care less. The stereotypes only apply to a few and the rest wouldn’t stand out in a crowd. <Sylvere> Vampirism is not a religion. It may have spiritual aspects for some of us, but just as many of us attend church, mosque, synagogue, or other forms of worship. Some of us aren’t religious at all. <Sylvere> None of us can make anyone else a vampire and being a vampire doesn’t make all your problems go away. We still work, go to school, raise families, and worry about the economy. What gifts we gain from our vampirism are balanced by the difficulties we experience because of it. <Sylvere> Safety, safety, safety! We take great care to choose donors who are healthy and to feed safely. We do have ethical standards (though not necessarily the Black Veil) that we strive to uphold. <Sylvere> Any representative should work to represent the community as a whole in an accurate manner while stressing that no single person can speak *for* the community. The issue of in or out of the coffin is moot. We, as a community, were dragged out of the coffin by the appearance of a vampire on Mad, Mad House. <Sylvere> We can no longer hide from the public eye. The only way out is through. We can no longer afford to be paranoid and shun the media. Those of us who are comfortable speaking to reporters should do so as often as possible in order to make certain accurate, reliable information is available to those who want or need it. <Sylvere> Those who are not comfortable with speaking to the public shouldn’t feel pressured to reveal themselves. Let it be an individual choice. We should also seek to create our own media, whether in the form of books, videos, or podcasts, and distribute it. That is the only way to truly control what information is presented and how it is done. <Ravena> Why would it be recognized as a special condition? Diabetics have to work. <Ravena> The rest of the world has to work. <Ravena> It can be described as a subculture. <NyteMuse> Ravena: How so? I think the individual beliefs vary too widely for a unifying subculture. <M_Belanger> 1. Our first and most fundamental message should be that we are not dangerous. We are not law-breakers. We are not out to subvert the country's youth, nor to abuse people in any way. Despite the fact that we self-identify in a particular fashion, that self-identification does not negate our basic humanity, nor our basic rights to the same treatment that one would accord to any other human being. <Anshar> Michelle: Amen. <M_Belanger> 2. Anyone from a fringe community who gains media exposure should be aware that, even if they seek only to represent themselves, the audience will nevertheless associate everything they do and say way with that fringe community. If you step up and do an interview, you should be aware of this. You should be circumspect in how you present yourself and you should seek to send a positive message for the entire community… <Isealdor> (1) I think anyone in the public press needs to mostly just be themselves. Nix with the fangs and the capes and the makeup and all that jazz, and nix with the trying to “represent the community” so much as trying to represent a portion of the community, perhaps, and mostly represent themselves. We all have different enough opinions on enough issues that anyone who tries to represent the community as a whole is going to have someone or group mad because <Isealdor> they said this or that. Instead, maybe say their own views, and then toss out there that there’s some controversy on whatever topic, and what some of the other views are. We need to show that we’re not all just cookiecutter, brainwashed clones who are clinging to some idea because it makes us different/special. <Isealdor> (2) I think the expectation should mostly be for them to not try to glam up whatever they do and to not try to speak for everyone in the community, or claim that their beliefs are the only “real” ones. The only other thing I have with appropriateness is that it just plain looks tacky if we have people out there calling someone else out, saying so-and-so is a fake/lifestyler. If people will just say they don’t agree with PersonX’s views/lifestyle/ <Isealdor> choices/beliefs, that works well and gets the point across without making it look like a dramafest. <Isealdor> For the ones actually going on the news and public with what they are, it’s going to follow them forever. Once you’re on a major media for something, you will forever be associated with that, especially in today’s era of the internet and the ease for Google searches. That may or may not affect people’s personal lives or potential jobs down the line. <Isealdor> For the rest of the community, I look at it a bit like the LGBT community and groups that are out and public—they help people coming into the community feel like they’re not as alone, but it also adds the fear that they’ll be “outted” if they join a group. <Isealdor> I don’t think whether the VC as a whole is underground and private or if it’s out in the public eye is something we really have all that much control over, honestly. We have a bit of a say about our own direct communities, and how much into the limelight or not we want them to be, but the greater community as a whole is going to have to settle into it’s own equalibrium, which will probably be fairly similar to how it’s always been; some groups <Isealdor> and people are out and open, others are closed off and private. <zilchy> Isealdor: Yeah, tell me about it. <NyteMuse> 1 & 2: Downplay the Goth and/or kink, up-play the normality & ethics. And avoiding use of the word "lifestyle" would be good, maybe even "culture". There is no vampire religion, not even a vampire culture per se *grin* <NyteMuse> 3 & 4: Advantages: Available support for newbies, and greater ease for those who desire to come out. <NyteMuse> Disadvantages: What we're already seeing; wannabes. Same thing happens in the Pagan community, and even in LGBT for a while (metrosexuals). <Lono> I think being in or out of the coffin is a personal choice, with many different variances. You may only show your name, you may display a name and pic, you may meet people offline... you may display your real name...by making sites, and the media conducting interviews I don’t think we are challenging anyones right to remain "in the coffin". <Lono> The downsides to revealing ones nature, (on this alone) I agree with Wreckmaster’s perspective.. I've heard many stories about people loosing their kids once telling their family. <M_Belanger> 3. Less hatred, which comes from ignorance and misunderstanding. The freedom to pursue our own paths without fear of reprisal or repercussions from spouses, family members, or co-workers. When someone remains secret and hidden, the natural human response is to wonder why it must be hidden -- and to become suspicious of it. By allowing a dialogue, we allay these suspicions. <M_Belanger> 4. Once you come out of the coffin in the media, you do not have the luxury of ever again shutting the door. Especially if you have chosen to participate in a television interview, you must accept the fact that people will recognize you and connect you with your words and media presentation. Overall, for me, this has been a good thing -- I find that the people who recognize me range from being solicitous to politely curious… <M_Belanger> 5. I understand that many people in the community wish to remain underground, and I respect that. However, I fail to see how participating in media interviews about the vampire community in any way obligates them or forces them out of the coffin. They are not named personally. Although some qualities of vampirism are discussed inevitably in these interviews, I do not see how those qualities would enable a casual onlooker to identify vampires. <M_Belanger> To me, those who wish to remain hidden and discrete can simply choose to do so, never outing themselves and thus retaining their privacy. <Anshar> I think we need to separate Mythical Vampirism, the Vampire Culture/Subculture, and Vampirism as a state of being. * NyteMuse agrees with Anshar <NyteMuse> Yes, there IS a vampire subculture/lifestyle, but not all vamps participate in it, so the link is not beneficial, IMO. <Anshar> Michelle: Not that we could really drag people kicking and screaming into the public eye effectively if we wanted to anyway. <NyteMuse> I can look at any person who claims to be into kink and find a unifying thread. Same with LGBT, more or less. <NyteMuse> Pagan...not so much...it gets trickier there, but still moreso than the VC. <M_Belanger> Well, yeah, but the criticism from the closet cases is that somehow, by going on TV, we out them, personally. <M_Belanger> I just don't see how that is possible. <Anshar> Neither do I. * NyteMuse agrees with Michelle <Lono> Yes Michelle, but your making a living being yourself... so that could be the difference. <Merticus> Who here is comfortable speaking to print journalists? Who here is comfortable speaking on radio? Who here is comfortable and adept at speaking on camera? <Merticus> Identity our strengths and weaknesses with one another and what each of us are capable and willing to do for the community in a media context. <cynsanity> Besides for saying that this was well thought out and good... sang representative. <NyteMuse> Merticus: I'm fine with print or radio. Nothing with pictures or video. * Sylvere is comfortable with print, radio, or TV/film <Merticus> I’m comfortable with print and radio. Film would have to be under the right conditions with a final cut agreement. <M_Belanger> I cannot stress enough how much we need an eloquent, capable & camera-ready sang vampire willing to do interviews. <Anshar> Michelle: Exactly. I got a lot of Sang Questions on camera, some that I couldn't answer. <Anshar> <= Comfortable with print, comfortable on radio, and barring a disaster tomorrow on FOX’s Hannity's America, comfortable on camera. <Isealdor> I will do anything that can be done over text. I won’t do radio/tv/film, etc <Lono> I'm comfortable speaking with print journalists. <Lono> I'm even more comfortable with radio interviews. <cynsanity> I'd do it, but I'm in Europe. <Vyrdolak> I'm comfortable with any media. <AcrophobicPixie> I'm comfortable with print and radio, but I'd have to get some lessons first. <AcrophobicPixie> Due to my family, for now, I'm going to have to say no to video. <xeurika> I have a face for radio. <sarasvati> I would have to agree with all that has been said so far, really... I don't have much to add. Yes to the representation of the WHOLE, maybe multiple reps needed. My job, my career, currently really precludes me from being the media spotlight, so I can't bark at those who are able to do so. Print journalism is ok. <M_Belanger> I completely understand why most people here cannot participate in media interviews -- especially anything that uses their image. <M_Belanger> It's a huge sacrifice -- there's no hiding from friends, family, neighbors, or random people at Wal-Mart. <M_Belanger> Admittedly, it has (for me) inspired some very interesting conversations in the most unusual of places. <M_Belanger> But it's not something someone should commit to casually or without considering all of the repercussions on their career. <Lono> Hell... in Massachusetts just because of my picture being on MySpace I was running into people at the mall, who recognized me. <Anshar> Such as? <M_Belanger> Anshar -- I've gotten free meals on more than one occasion at restaurants where they recognized me from one of the vampire shows. <M_Belanger> A bunch of tweens buying Twilight in the Borders the other day about mobbed me asking whether or not I knew any vampires like Edward. <M_Belanger> The free meal usually comes with the person who put it on their employee ticket coming over to ask questions about vampires -- often opening up about being one, or having dated one <zilchy> I'll do interviews, but the problem is that I'm not exclusively a sang. <M_Belanger> But you do drink blood, which is at least more than I do. <zilchy> The problem we'll likely find is that we'd have probing from the media to show a sang feeding. <zilchy> A question I get a lot "show us a feeding!" <Isealdor> Zilchy: Which would then be picked apart by people inside and outside of the community <Merticus> Who are sang vampires in the community who have proven track records of success with the media? <Merticus> What about Lady CG? <NyteMuse> Lady CG? <Isealdor> Merticus: Lady CG <Imon> Lady CG <cynsanity> Lady CG <Camazotz> I would say Lady CG, but she's more animal blood - no? <Sylvere> Lady CG has a good record. <sarasvati> Lady CG has had human donors as well. <Imon> Belfazaar has done some tape but it's not produced yet. <Isealdor> Both, Camazotz <Merticus> Ok Belfazaar, Lady CG, anyone else someone has in mind to speak with and suggest they take such a role? You can think of someone outside this network of course. <AcrophobicPixie> I'll see if I can call Random, Merticus. He's a hybrid, but he's primarily sang. <AcrophobicPixie> Merticus.. He's not in my phone anymore. I'll call my brother, and see if he knows anyone who would be good. <Imon> There were two other names suggested on the forum but they escape my memory at the moment. <Imon> Isealdor suggested them I think. * Isealdor doesn’t remember who he suggested, now (goes and looks). <NyteMuse> A hybrid representative wouldn't be a bad idea. <Merticus> Yes, nothing wrong with a hybrid... of those there are many qualified. <AncientKhan> Just a suggestion, but shouldn't sangs decide who is a representative for them? <cynsanity> Yeah <Camazotz> It seems to me that a psi representative is more easily representative than a sang one, because there's so much disagreement within and without about what a sang feeds on/from. <M_Belanger> Khan -- I think this is more brainstorming about who might be able to step up to the plate. <AncientKhan> Gotcha, Michelle. Just wanted to put that thought out. <Isealdor> Khan: Were there a mass of options, perhaps. <Anshar> Khan: In theory, sure, in practice, did anyone ever really decide on Michelle or myself as an energy representative? <Anshar> It's about availability and circumstance. <M_Belanger> True that, Camazotz. <M_Belanger> Input sure wouldn't hurt. <cynsanity> It so pisses me off that all of this is happening in the United States. <NyteMuse> Um...where would one go to poll the sang community about that? I know Myrbree was postulating some sort of site to allow the entire VC to vote on issues and make their voices heard... <Imon> I have no problem asking anyone I've suggested, I'm not doing it nefariously. <Isealdor> Oh, right... Mike Future or Lady Onyx Ravyn are two others. <Isealdor> I dont know how willing they are to go out into the media itself, though. <Merticus> Personally I feel that any of us are more than capable of handling any print-related media inquiry... it's the radio and film that is the tricky part. Yes, Lady Onyx Ravyn is capable and may be willing. * Sylvere is going to do her best to represent the sangs well tomorrow if asked with the reporter from Pitch. <Camazotz> Sylvere: Are you sang per se? (no comment on the per se lol) <Sylvere> Camazotz: No, but if the reporter asks me a sang question, I'm going to try to give him good info. <Sylvere> It's the least I can do. <Imon> Anyway bottom line, get a group of people who are willing to represent 'vampirism' in all its diversity to various forms of media if so interested. <Merticus> Imon: Exactly and there is quite the diversity to choose from. When the next media opportunity comes down the pipeline be out in front and don't waste time debating the merits of such for more than 24 hours or they WILL have moved on elsewhere - ie: Vampyra, etc. <zilchy> Yeah as the media goes - I'm with Imon about not waiting. <zilchy> Jump on it only if they give you final cut. <Merticus> By the time you are debating the merits of a show that show has likely contacted nearly a dozen people - same for articles, etc. They have deadlines and aren't really concerned with your reservations to participate etc. Investigate matters quickly, efficiently, and make your points clear to them. <Merticus> c. The International Vampire Community: What steps can the community take to bridge the information and networking gap between U.S./Canadian and European/South American/etc. vampires? Aside from multi-lingual translations of documents and culturally diverse forums what specific avenues should be explored to encourage transparent dialogue and participation? <Merticus> What are some particular differences in cultural and communication styles you’ve noticed between different regions of the world and how many individuals outside of your country do you regularly speak with? How do vampires and vampiric-identity or practice differ in these countries as opposed to your own? Could normalization of resources and information-sharing become a reality in the near future? If so, how do we get to that point? <Lady Slinky> c. I don't feel I should generalize the cultures of other countries based on the individuals that I have known. I would say other then word placement and slang used I would say that I have not noticed much of a difference. I talk with at least 12 people from outside the United States regularly. I suppose anything is possible. Continue to translate articles and seek out the existing communities in these countries. <Mairi> c. What we are doing right now with VVC is in my opinion a major step in bridging the gap and networking. It’s given us an opportunity to exchange info that many of us would not have had before. I consider myself blessed for having had the opportunity to speak online with those from Europe. <Perce Coeur> c. (1) I mean, the vampire community is wide enough in USA, but it's obviously not the case of every countries of the world. I have read a lot about other countries communities’ and often people find it hard to meet other vampires in their own countries. <Perce Coeur> So let’s limit it to the countries who have a vampire community and let others find their own path before they join us. An international meeting would be my best idea on the subject. <Perce Coeur> c. (2) Nothing is better than meet people and talk to them directly. <Perce Coeur> c. (3) Wow I could write a book about it but it would be a little too long... All I can say is the fact that all communities are not on the same level of development makes people don't have the same level of discussion. But when you get beyond this gap, you always discover fascinating new people. <Perce Coeur> c. (4) If that is possible then why not? I can only encourage people trying to do that. <RavenHarte> c. I guess more multinational forums is the key. More American Vamps getting to conferences outside the U.S. where/when they can etc. <SphynxCatVP> c. Translations, definitely, for a start. You can't begin to start a dialogue until people have a common point of reference to start discussing things FROM. Otherwise you're still hashing out the basics when you could be moving forward. <SphynxCatVP> Also, being tolerant of other people's differences. In the USA and English speaking countries, the information is varied, common, and in great quantities - what's available in Non-English countries is often quite limited, and thus people will not have the same vast body of knowledge to draw from. <SphynxCatVP> I only notice differences if I'm chatting with someone who's not a native English speaker. I don't usually notice unless something I'm not familiar with is brought up. <SphynxCatVP> I know there are some countries with laws that essentially make some vampiric activities illegal (not in so many words, but by how restrictive they are in general.) Resource and information sharing can definitely become a reality - my own site is open to anyone, with some translation capability to help move things along, for example. <SphynxCatVP> Beyond that? I don't know - depends on how well people are willing to communicate and get along on an individual basis. :) <Wreckmaster> c. I think we need to work on a vocabulary for ourselves. There are many confusing terms we have. A translator program will have trouble with this. Even if we make up words. We need to do it, and stick to it as a group. I have been pushing for this for some time. <Zero> c. The associations with vampire imagery, supernatural metaphor, and death iconography differ greatly all over the world. In many places, I think that the community should probably give up entirely on the metaphor and try to normalize it into their own cultural context - mystic religion, scientific research, or some other "hobby." Most places in the world are not free enough to come out of the coffin in. <Zero> Mainland China has a history of supernatural-themed political rebellions, and still cracks down on anything that looks like a magical cult. In most other Asian cultures, any association with death or the supernatural is going to be seen as extremely negative and anti-social. In Latin America and Africa, gangs, criminals, and warlords have used aggressive supernatural <Zero> iconography for intimidation and to cover up heinous crimes. Europe is wary of extremist religion and would likely view this community as such. Other cultures don't have the literary progression to draw on when humanizing the vampire - often when you translate the vampire out of the English language, you are left with nothing but a community- <Zero> destroying monster. The associations make the Satanic Panic in the United States look like kiddie stuff. Rule one for international vampires is change the name. <Merticus> c. We need to actively seek out and speak with those in countries other than our own. To ask them what it is like in their country for vampires and if they have an established vampire community. Networking and knowing what to expect from different cultures goes a long way to becoming effective at long-distance community building and sharing. <Merticus> I think this first starts with identifying to the overall community what non-English sites or European, etc. communities exist outside of the major forums and web sites most of us are familiar with (something already in progress on the VVC resource links page of the web site). This list needs to be a resource guide others can reference on both sides - us learning about them and them about us. <Merticus> I hope that we can complete the article translation project at some point in 2009 as well as host TWILIGHT (The Gathering) in either London and/or Paris next year or 2010 at the latest. If we are unfamiliar with what transpires in different parts of the world we can’t adequately interpret how what we’ve written and shared for years in the U.S., Canada, etc. is being put into practice or relevant to their cultures. <cynsanity> Yeah... London, Paris or Berlin or something like that. <AcrophobicPixie> Other than keeping the lines of communication open, and not shutting them out just because they are from another area or speak another language, iono. I am in contact with people from Eastern Europe and Britain on a regular basis. Honestly, other than spelling, there’s not that much of a difference between British peoples and Americans. Non-English speakers tend to take things said a bit more literally, but once slang and the <Camazotz> Well my point was the book project... which I had originally proposed as the 'great translation project'... but that is taking time. <Isealdor> I think at times there’s less of an information and networking gap between all of the English-speaking countries than we normally realize, mostly because we tend to put ourselves into little clusters of people in the same areas as us. For the non-English people, I think translations would be a fabulous thing, as much as we can do them, and in both directions—the non-English articles translated into English, too. <cynsanity> 1 - Homepages need to be translated into different languages. Especially the German speaking vampire community would benefit from that, as the majority of the German stuff online is total crap. <zilchy> YES translate to German. <M_Belanger> We need translations. <M_Belanger> Reliable ones of basic information <cynsanity> I can translate from English to German <Merticus> The AVA can translate German + have contacts with Russian translators as well. <AcrophobicPixie> Also, to add, I'm currently working on learning Japanese, so hopefully I'll finish learning my Kana fast enough to start translating. <Gabrielx> I may be able to get a Swedish translator plus she knows about four other languages. <Camazotz> I can get stuff in Norwegian if Nanu agrees Merticus <Isealdor> I have a plethora of foreigners on the Realm, I can ask if any of them would be willing to translate if we need, too. <NyteMuse> I do have one comment. Didn't Michelle mention once that other cultures have more of a context for energy deficiencies/imbalances? I have to wonder if focusing on making resources available in those countries might not garner some...interesting connections. <Anshar> I have something to add here. Vedantic and Hindi belief systems have a LOT more experience with energetic feeding than western culture does. Pranic Vampirism is even a DOCUMENTED phenomenon in Hindi myth... <Anshar> We really should talk to some experts... <Merticus> Eastern energy work practices, etc. Qigong, Reiki, etc. <Camazotz> Good point Anshar <zilchy> Anshar: Definitely a good point, though I think some Eastern practices are a bit diluted and contaminated with new-age crap here in the west. How to find someone straight at the source? <NyteMuse> I should really get back into my holistic health studying, and poking back into Asian studies... <Anshar> Lots of experts on those belief systems. Just need to open a dialogue. No one has really tried. <Anshar> Vedic practioners have a FIT when they learn about us. <NyteMuse> Anshar: Why's that? <Anshar> Because we use the word prana and because in the related mythos pranic vampirism is caused by demonic possession. <Anshar> i.e. the Piscavat. <NyteMuse> Yeah, I've shied away from "prana" most of the time when I talk, except as a mention "some ppl use this word to refer to it, for context, but I've heard it's inaccurate". <M_Belanger> First, language is obviously a barrier, but we should consider that we do not even have many in-roads of shared communication in other English-speaking countries. I know vampires living in Ireland, England, and Australia -- but I can count these individuals collectively on one hand! Logically, there must be more people who are like us in these countries, and yet where are they? How do we reach out to them or encourage them to reach out to us? <M_Belanger> I agree with Zero in that we cannot underestimate cultural differences in how a conservative or restrictive culture will respond to our existence. <Vyrdolak> Especially in Asia and South America where they have very distinct cultural tradition for the paranormal in general and vampirism in particular. <Vyrdolak> Different cultures have very different paradigms for vampirism. <Vyrdolak> We can't assume that the popular terminology and definitions in the English-speaking VC have relevance or are understood in other countries--they probably aren't. <Vyrdolak> The best thing for us to do is become thoroughly familiar with what other cultures believe and practice in terms of vampirism, mediumship and the paranormal and be able to demonstrate <Vyrdolak> "cultural literacy" on those topics when talking to people from those countries. <Vyrdolak> Just because they're reading our websites doesn't mean they're interpreting them the same way. <Camazotz> An important point is that community abroad is different.... in Ireland we LIKE being solitary/in small pockets. <Camazotz> We work together when we need to, but have no desire to be formalized. <Camazotz> Frankly, we get less BS that way... if someone bugs you, you show up and hash it out in person. <Lono> I have a meetups section on my site, and have encountered about a dozen from Iireland. <zilchy> Michelle, I've been getting a LOT of communication from Victoria, AUS, so it's definitely there. <M_Belanger> I've got a contact in Hobart, and there was a meetup group there, but it seems to have fizzled. <M_Belanger> On one hand, in countries like Thailand, we are likely to encounter less resistance to the question of vampirism -- they're very likely to believe that we are what we say we are. <M_Belanger> But the downside is that countries where they are much more likely to believe without reservation, they are often also more likely to fear without reservation. <M_Belanger> And there is the very real possibility in some of these places that self-identification as a vampire will be met with violence. <M_Belanger> To cut down on the workload (and we've addressed this with the Book Project to some extent) we should compile something like a universal FAQ. <Merticus> Yes, I was speaking with Sylvere earlier about a universal FAQ - for VVC web site, etc. <Sylvere> I volunteered to work on a universal FAQ during my break. <NyteMuse> Michelle: I agree in theory, but I wonder about striking a balance between covering the major points without being too tl:dr (too long, didn’t read). <Sylvere> I'll be working to compile 10-15 of the top questions and some short answers. <zilchy> I'll contribute to the FAQ if you need more help. <AcrophobicPixie> Sylvere, I'll send you a list of our FAQ's at the Haven. <NyteMuse> Sylvere: Let me know if you want some extra minions... I've been doing a lot of FAQing on the Grey School. <Isealdor> Sylvere, you're welcome to any of my FAQs, too. <Sylvere> Everyone just send me your FAQs and any other FAQs you think are good. I'll do the rest. <cynsanity> Besides for Eastern cultures, can I get into "Europe" for a moment here?. <Camazotz> Please do Cynsanity, would be interested to hear how your Europe and mine differ <cynsanity> The "vampire tradition" we have is the one most of you would be familiar with... as for real vampires, it's somewhat complicated. Lots of people don't even know about the concept of real vampires who actually are vampires. I think it's those people we should focus on when it comes to vampirism in the international sense. * Isealdor agrees with cynsanity - There are a lot of cultures who dont have the obsession that, say, America does with vampire lore. <Camazotz> Same in the UK/Ireland too Cynsanity, even though we have access to the English forums. <M_Belanger> Cynsanity has a very important point, and it's been something I've wondered. <M_Belanger> One of the benefits of the widespread exposure vampires in the media have received in the States since the 70s or so is that more people like us are likely to stumble upon the archetype and realize that it fits them in some fashion. <M_Belanger> Other countries do not have that background, and it's likely that there are either other archetypes/terms that have been adopted, or none at all for people who, if educated, would realize that they fit here. <Camazotz> It’s very rare that I will meet an awakened vampire in Ireland... more in Scotland/England, even though I do meet a lot of potentials. <Camazotz> Michelle: Yes, if we get a vampire documentary on TV it's normally at 3 AM. <Merticus> Ties right back to why many in Europe do not use the "V" word to identify themselves even though we'd recognize them as such. <cynsanity> In Germany, "Shadow" seems to be the accepted term for vampiric people. <cynsanity> And only very few people know about real vampires
<Isealdor> I think we as the "vampire community" need to be more aware of some of the other names and terms used around the world <zilchy_> Isealdor: Agreed. <Merticus> That same point was brought up by Dr. Hufford when researching the old hag effect. People from different cultures had different terms/descriptors, etc. for what is essentially sleep paralysis. <M_Belanger> I always think back to my Chinese friend's response when I asked if he knew of a Chinese word for psychic vampire. <M_Belanger> He laughed & said that some people have too much chi, some don't have enough, & everyone just shares chi - no need to get hung up on a silly word when it's so normal. <Anshar> Michelle: That's what I focused on during the interview. Too much nomenclature with no context. <Sylvere> Michelle: That's what I want someday - to be seen as "normal". <Isealdor> Normal is a setting on a washing machine...no one is "normal". <Camazotz> My uncle in India was the same Michelle. <Camazotz> He said we needed to work on getting me enough energy... period. * AncientKhan laughs at the concept of changing the word "vampire" to "chi-feeder" <Sylvere> Chi-a-feeder <Anshar> Your donor is a Chi-a-pet * Everyone laughs… <M_Belanger> It would be great. The word is our biggest blessing and our biggest curse, hanging round our necks like the proverbial albatross. * cynsanity doesn't want to be called a chi-feeder * Isealdor pictures the next cutesy YouTube video being some stuffed animal talking about being a chi-feeder. <sarasvati> In the U.S., people would probably hear that as "chai" and wonder about Starbucks appeal to vampires... <M_Belanger> Well, at least we all have a well-developed sense of humor for our positions! <NyteMuse> Yup, helps cushion the falls our pride takes. <Camazotz> Inky from NOX and a few of us had been using the word pranist. <Camazotz> Remove oneself from a starting point of having to dispell myths before you can move onto truths. <Camazotz> But that's a side debate. <M_Belanger> Pranist -- would that confuse or irritate traditional Hindus? <Camazotz> Well my family are Jain M - they would be confused at most lol <M_Belanger> I've always wondered what a traditional Taoist might think of our appropriation of the word CHI. <NyteMuse> Camazotz: Totally with you on that... been moving off the V-word myself lately. <M_Belanger> First and foremost: we have to acknowledge (and get over) the fact that when the community says, "vampire," it means a diverse number of things. <M_Belanger> We identify with the vampire in one capacity or another. Most of us acknowledge that a fundamental factor in that identification in a real and palpable need for whatever form of vitality we typically seek. <M_Belanger> Because there is strength in numbers, we should not, at this point in our development, focus on our differences. We should focus on our common ground and move forward from there. <M_Belanger> Furthermore, we should recognize that, for those viewing us from the outside, such distinctions and nuances simply are not as visible or as important as they are to us. * NyteMuse agrees with Michelle <Anshar> Michelle: I don't see the different terms people use converging anytime soon, do you? <cynsanity> Camazotz: Talk about the European "community”. <cynsanity> Camazotz: How do you perceive your corner of Europe, 'vampire-wise'? <Camazotz> From a perspective of an English speaking European vampire, those who do wish for more access to community do get frustrated. I and others have started boards over here and they don't seem to work/last. Put the word Irish in the title and you end up with 99% 2nd/3rd generation American members. <Camazotz> In terms of the real community, more of us gather with a premise of occult workings, than purely over vampirism as a topic <Camazotz> I would say whilst there are vampires here Cynsanity, in Ireland there is little to no vampire community. <NyteMuse> Camazotz: Why do you think that is? <Camazotz> Difficult question NyteMuse... much of it is that we don't feel a need to clump together with others in the same way, we don't have a culture of needing 'support'. <Camazotz> I won't hang out with every Irish vamp just because they are vamp, the same way I see people Stateside (for example) looking for others in their own area. <Camazotz> I was feeding long before I ever heard the word vampire or learned there was a community. <cynsanity> Same as Camazotz here. <NyteMuse> I can see the point, Camazotz. There are some people in the local community I will not associate with, even if they are vamps. The local community here is pretty thin, seems like most of the camaraderie happens more online. <Camazotz> I would say I fully awakened after making some contact, but more in terms of having a lable perhaps and really accepting sang. <Isealdor> Most dont realize it, but the Realm actually /is/ located physically in Europe. <Isealdor> And there's very large Realm population that is European, complete with informal meetups and gatherings. <cynsanity> In the German speaking "community", it's quite difficult. I think that the vampiric identity of a European is basically different to that of an American vamp. We have no real offline community, besides for one or two houses in Germany, and the whole 'finding out via the internet'-deal is still very much new to us. Those few European vamps I know all had to figure out what was going on with them by themselves - there is no vampire scene in <cynsanity> Europe, besides for a few feeding circles in major cities. People have to figure out on their own what it is that is happening to them, and so most of them have a more or less non-dogmatic stance on it. <Merticus> Does the European community as a whole approach the subject of vampirism from a more occult / magickal based-leaning than does the United States or Canada? <Isealdor> Merticus: In my experience, it's very split in the approach--partially as a subculture, and partially as a magick/occult study thing. <Camazotz> Merticus: I would discuss more about vampirism with Luciferian friends than local vamps to answer your question. <Camazotz> And gay friends to be honest. <Camazotz> We tend to be rather territorial here... perhaps because there are less, we are more possesive of what is “ours”. <cynsanity> I only have 'mundanes' and donors to talk to, neither of which understand the concept in itself. <Lono> The problem is as a group we (collectively as a whole) can get in the habit of nit picking when we are really trying to nail something down. * zilchy agrees with Lono. * Sylvere agrees w/Lono...and some people in the VVC will nit-pick something to death even after everyone else has agreed on it. <NyteMuse> Camazotz: Do you feel like perhaps the vampires just accept it an as-is thing and not worth making a big deal about? You all have to deal with it, so most of you more or less understand the trials and tribulations, whereas an outsider not so much? <Camazotz> You go into say The Cathouse in Glasgow, you will be shown very clearly by the local psi's that you're not welcome... they attack/probe first, maybe speak later. <NyteMuse> Yikes... hostile territory. <Camazotz> I think when one doesn't start off with the word and the negative associations NyteMuse, it's easier to just get on with it. <Isealdor> Cynsanity, maybe try talking to some of the less-mainstream religious people? <NyteMuse> I do feel like some people make just a huge-fucking-deal about it, for shock value. <M_Belanger> Really? I've heard similar from folks who traveled to Montreal, which is about the most European city in the continental U.S. <M_Belanger> I wonder is there's some subtle cultural thing that encourages such behavior? <Camazotz> Good question Michelle. <Camazotz> The first time I drank blood wasn't a big deal.... now to find a donor and feed, now the term is there, it suddenly is. <Camazotz> Xaphaniel could tell you that there are a lot of Scottish vampires… again they push and test each other. <Camazotz> We tend to get adept fast at dealing with psi attacks, tendrils, etc. <Anshar> Tendrils? <M_Belanger> Tentacles of energy that one can extend either to probe, lash, or latch onto people. <Anshar> Michelle: Knew the metaphysical theory of tendrils, just didn't know if that's what was being referred to. <Camazotz> Anshar: A rather nasty feeding/attack technique if you want to use it that way. <Camazotz> Michelle: Here, they'll stick it right into your spine or base of skull... that hurts. <M_Belanger> Best places to put them -- at least as far as efficiency goes. Not very polite, though. <M_Belanger> At some point, it might be insightful for folks here to go back in the Witchvox.com archives to read up on the "Which Witch is Which" controversy. <Anshar> Michelle: Yea, that's a great prototype. <AcrophobicPixie> Oh, goodness. I remember that controversy. I think I wrote something for them, back in the day. <Merticus> Does anyone have any other comparisons or constrasting between the European (Eastern or Western) and the rest of the world? <cynsanity> Central Europe basically doesn't have a 'vampire subculture', mostly due to lack of information. <NyteMuse> So maybe the terminology is carrying a lot of the baggage? <M_Belanger> There's a lot of baggage with the terminology -- there's no escaping that baggage so long as we persist in using that terminology. <M_Belanger> I have minimal contact with some vamps in Kiev. They are very closeted and they are unaware of anything like a community in their area. <Merticus> If Central Europe was exposed to such information how long would the "learning curve" be so to speak to get them caught up to where things are in America... would they likely go through the same growing pains as we have the last 15 or so years? <cynsanity> More or less yes, Merticus <Isealdor> Do the majority of European vampires even /want/ a community? <Camazotz> You go to certain parts of the UK we have very tight-knit 'family' groups... <Lono> The problem comes in changing that terminology altogether, and newbies not being able to find the needed information because the term they heard or was given by others no longer exists or is searchable under that name. <AncientKhan> Maybe if we, collectively, stop trying to create universal definitions, perhaps people coming together to pass information would be more fruitful. We're shooting ourselves in the feet everyday. <Isealdor> We're assuming that they need to "catch up", that the community we have is right and what there should be. <AncientKhan> Amen, Isealdor. I tend to like their approach better than ours. <Merticus> True <cynsanity> Isealdor: Most of us are very inclined to not interacting with others. <Camazotz> No, I would say most of us don't... we want access to information, ways to network etc, some events/gatherings would be cool.... BUT we don't need to have a camp-fire and sing kumbaya. <Camazotz> With us, you're either interesting/worth something, or you're not... doesn't matter if you're vamp/kin/mainstream. <Camazotz> Perhaps we just value our time more lol <Merticus> So find an effective way to bridge the lines of communication with the more obscure and get everyone talking and exchanging different perspectives... might all learn a thing or two. <M_Belanger> It's funny how region affects the character of the community in the States. <M_Belanger> NYC, it's this huge party scene and so much of the community is about going out & socializing at clubs. <M_Belanger> Here in the Midwest, you're just happy to have people you can talk to, and it's much more a "hearth & home" kind of feel. <M_Belanger> California is like New York in that there's this huge party scene, but the vampires prefer to be solitary hunters, hidden among the club-crowd, never making their presence widely known. <NyteMuse> Or rebelling against authority, from what I've seen. <cynsanity> We don't have that. <Sylvere> Yep, same in Kansas City. I know every vamp in town. Possibly in the state. <AcrophobicPixie> Michelle, that's how the whole Midwest is, not just the vampire scene, though :) <Lono> Depends where you go up North...Boston/Rhode Island area. <Gabrielx> California wasn't always like that, you were lucky to find one individual. <Gabrielx> I think movies and media helped in that area for better or worse. <NyteMuse> Yep. Few to no real Houses or groups. <Sylvere> Few houses in the Midwest too. <NyteMuse> Sylvere: But is that due to not enough people or no interest? <Sylvere> NyteMuse: Both. We don't want the drama of Houses. <Isealdor> NyteMuse: More the latter. <Merticus> d. Diversity, Perception, & Empowerment: What steps can we take as a community to help improve our own lives, encourage appropriate and meaningful participation, and prevent the over-simplification of what it means to be a vampire while still helping those coming to know their nature for the first time? <Merticus> As vampires we often have an incredible diversity in the personal meaning we ascribe to the concept of “vampirism” - some viewing it solely as a need - physical, spiritual, or both (albeit sang, psi, or hybrid), others as a potential medical condition or deficiency, still others as an ability, state of being, or extension of energy work, and many who incorporate all of these views into their own menagerie. <Merticus> While we are engaging in self-examination how can we maintain focus on supporting the vampire community, arrest the self-deprecating mindset that the only aspect to vampirism is a “constant struggle”, and bypass the pitfalls of division over terminology? <Lady Slinky> d. It is natural to focus on your base needs. Until the constant struggle is no longer a constant struggle that is the aspect most people in a support community are going to focus on. If you would rather not address those issues or would like to focus attention elsewhere because either you are no longer struggling with it or are tired of other peoples struggle then perhaps <Lady Slinky> you would be better off in a networking community and avoiding the support portions of the community. I think most support communities within the vampiric community do try to present both sides of the coin especially for energy vamps as they seem to have so many perks. <Lady Slinky> You can't discount the fact that for some the only aspects to vampirism ARE a constant struggle. <Mairi> d. I do feel that it’s more important that we put our energies into helping our own community internally rather than putting all our eggs in the basket for our coming out. And in this I mean we need to pair down the vocabulary of terms we use to describe daily activities, emotions and actions. <Mairi> You must admit its getting to be a bit ridiculous anymore. My feelings are that there are no different types of vampires, just different types of energies and different manners of acquiring it. And I know there are many more vamps who feel the same as I do but we sill fall back to sang, psi, psychic, sexual, elemental ect as being types of vamps when we are in a pinch and I honestly feel we need to STOP this. <Mairi> It’s confusing to many as well as the newly awakened. I feel that this new term “hybrid’ is a bunch of bull. I can and do feed from all types of energies and I don’t feel that I’m anything special enough to deserve a new title for it. <Mairi> It’s like saying that because someone can tolerate both apples and oranges that they digestion of them deserves a special term or title. Come on folks! I also feel we need to start being honest with ourselves about our feeding habits, how we acquire the energy or why we go about getting it in a certain manner. <Mairi> A vamp who prefers to feed on energies manipulated through sex shouldn’t be out there telling the world that he is a sexual vamp who needs to have sex regularly in order to feed. That makes him/her sound like a sexual predator and someone to be afraid of. Let’s clean up our own communities act First before we expose it to the media. <Perce Coeur> d. It is important to learn to listen to other people who may need your help. As I have discovered years ago, you always learn from the one who learns. It is sometimes hard to get available, but if explained gently then people understand. <Perce Coeur> On the other hand, vampires should learn to live and behave with each other. I mean, aren't we suppose to be "higher spirits"? And sometimes I find it hard to believe when I see or read things that look like a nursery school arguing... We don't have time or energy to waste in that kind of things. <Perce Coeur> Besides if we want to improve, if we want to open the community (or just a part) to the public, what will they think if they find out that kind of things? That is just not serious. We should help and support each other instead of tearing us apart. <Perce Coeur> If you don’t agree with the terminology of someone else, that’s ok, you have the right of your own ideas but respect those of others too. We must be strong together because the worst is yet to come. <SphynxCatVP> d. I think the who-is-and-isn't debates are the single biggest roadblock we have to moving forward - we're still fighting internally, how the hell can we present a united front to the outside world if we can't stop fighting ourselves? <SphynxCatVP> The only 'constant struggle' aspect I see is people trying to define themselves and others in or out of the equation. Seriously, if we can all STOP getting into pissing matches about who is and isn't a vampire and why, we can move forward with community support a lot easier. <SphynxCatVP> At best, any such debates should be more along the lines of "my experience is soley with [x] which prevents me from being terribly helpful with [y] – however you might try contacting [so-and-so] who has more experience with [y], perhaps they are in a better position to help you." <SphynxCatVP> I therefore ignore the type terminology except as it relates to issues with overall categories of feeding preferences - there are issues with blooddrinking that don't come up with energy, and vice versa - and I just address potential issues relating to the feeding methods. <SphynxCatVP> It's not my place to make judgments, other than provide a reality check if I think someone is overlooking mundane health issues. <Wreckmaster> d. My only comment is the vocabulary issue. As the resident asshole in Lono’s forum, I do not deal directly with our newbs. Unless they mess up. :P <Zero> d. The first step is to quit using false distinctions. I'd prefer to acknowledge the difference between sanguinarian and psi vampires, but to make it understood that the distinction is based on observation, not an understanding of what's going on here. We have spent a lot of time coming up with terms like Hybrid, Elemental Vampire, etc. that can't really be defined and mean nothing. <Zero> For example, categorizing psivamps by the source of their energy intake makes the false assumption that there is a structural difference in those energy sources, when we really don't know. Using the word Hybrid signals that there are two normal states of vampirism, sang and psi, and that sometimes you get two-in-one. Research suggests it's more of a spectrum. <Zero> Basing identity on these false distinctions merely creates false divisions within the community. <Zero> I think that the self-perception of vampirism as being something of a disability is prevalent, and that disability theorists, especially those involved with Deaf identity, may be useful to look at. Many theorists today are advocating the idea of "different, not disordered," when dealing with alternative cognition like <Zero> Asperger's, ADHD, and the like. The idea is that the problems arising from these groups' differences exist not because of their differences, but because society is structured for people without those differences. Learning theory, current sleep-cycle research, and other diverse fields are also telling us that the human experience is diverse and that the "disability" can often come <Zero> from society's expectations that the few conform to the expectations of the many. I think that some of this should be required reading within the community. <Merticus> d. We need to recognize the aspects of vampirism (in any form) that we share in common before we assume group X or Y are not “real vampires” because they don’t use a certain term or label or have a different feeding method than our own. <Merticus> I have met well over a two-hundred vampires from all walks of our community and in most of these exchanges despite any cultural or particular practice differences found something reinforcing to my own vampirism and at the same time uniquely their own. I care far less what feeding method, spiritual or magickal beliefs, physical quirks, etc. one possesses than I do for one’s attitude on how they approach their personal vampirism. <Merticus> Self-insulating yourself from other ideas and experiences in my opinion doesn’t help anyone. Yes, vampirism is often a struggle - whether with awakening, feeding, acceptance, or other attributes; but at the same time I don’t believe the struggle with these issues is the only defining characteristic. <Merticus> We should be able to learn from this and in turn help others live a more well adjusted and productive personal, social, and professional life. Helping foster what we share in common and supporting the needs and ideas of each other rather than bending over backwards to draw lines in the sand in every direction. <AcrophobicPixie> Personally, I don't see what the whole hoopla over terminology is. I mean, who cares what you are, as long as you don't act like a total nutcase when you go about it? Sang, psi, hybrid, MooMoo from Tau nebula. All are vamps. I mean, if all we can do is fight amongst ourselves, we won't get the info out that we want, and only get the ickyness that other's push out there because they can. <Anshar> Mairi: But, if that person DOES have to have sex to feed, then aren't we telling a person to not be themselves to make us look "better"? Is that any different from telling Sangs to just say they eat steak so it doesn't make us look like "criminals"? If Khan drinks menstrual blood (for example) do I have to want him to dumb things down and hide to make the rest of us look better? <Anshar> I think that's a crock. * Camazotz applauds Anshar <AncientKhan> If we want to improve our lives and meaningful participation, stop trying to waste time fighting over definitions for everyone based on your experiences, and emphasize what you learned purely for information exchange and collaborate on ideas. We lose too much time arguing over things that have no real, single definition. Get your own shit in order before trying to hold the Vampire Inquisition. <Isealdor> I am a staunch promoter of information. I think we need to share, share, and share; what we think, what we know, what we want to know…communication really is the key. Most of us didn’t get where we are by keeping everything to ourselves, or not trying to find information other places, and the newcomers need to have as many resources as is possible, and people willing to actually sit down and /talk/ about it with them. There are 101 theories out there. <Isealdor> People who vehimently believe one thing or another, but wont stop and take the time to listen to what anyone else has to say or what they believe and why, and that only hurts those trying to learn and develop their own beliefs. <Isealdor> I could care less what terminology is used, frankly. I think fights over terminology are among the most stupid we get into. More important is that people explain what is meant by whatever term they choose to use, so there can be clear communication. * AcrophobicPixie agrees with Isealdor <Sylvere> I don’t think there *is* any way to prevent over-simplification in the early stages of education. One does not give a six-year-old advanced physics and expect the child to understand. We need to have information available that will appeal to different levels of interest and comprehension ability. <Sylvere> Joe and Jane Average don’t need or want advanced metaphysical theory, nor are they likely to understand it. On the other hand, academics, law-enforcement, and other energy workers may have a need or desire for more complex information. <Sylvere> Unfortunately, we have yet to come to any consensus on even the most basic concepts, such as what it is that defines a vampire. Until we can do that, we will forever be held to the over-simplifications because those are the only aspects we *can* agree on. <M_Belanger> What can we do? Network. Maintain reliable resources. Encourage peer review of existing and new resources to maintain a level of quality and accuracy -- not to mention good sense. Follow our own paths of self-discovery with the knowledge that we can serve as examples within the community. Consider mentoring newbies. And if teaching is not in your blood, simply present yourself as a worthy example of how we should behave. <M_Belanger> There are needs that we experience, just as there are symptoms many of us undergo that indicate when we need to feed. I do not think it would be healthy for us to ignore these things or to sweep them under the rug, but I do think that oftentimes we places too much stress upon them. "I feed, therefore I am" is a very limited and limiting defintion of vampirism, and it may lead some fledgling members of the community to feel disabled… <M_Belanger> There are good points that most of us experience as well. We should not undersell these. <Anshar> Michelle: So, essentially, personal accountability. <M_Belanger> Indeed. <Camazotz> I am not disabled (though it's not always easy), I am not a victim, I have talents and skills that I will *not* hide to avoid being seen as promoting something supernatural.. oh and we would get on better if we didn't have half the fakers around who are the ones who create and propogate drama. <Camazotz> Throw the kiddies in the play pen, let them fight amongst themselves and the adults can move on. <Isealdor> It's really not that hard to preface articles and such when a term is used with a short explanation of each term as it comes up <Isealdor> Camazotz: those kiddies are going to be the new adults soon <Isealdor> Let's not make them reinvent the wheel * Sylvere agrees with Isealdor <M_Belanger> I'd love to discourage the new invention of words that basically say the same thing as established words. Or alternate spellings. <Isealdor> Michelle: I /love/ the idea of peer reviews. <M_Belanger> Credit Xeurika on that one. <M_Belanger> His idea first. <Merticus> Personal accountability and responsibility is unfortunately sorely lacking with some participants in this community. * Sylvere just wants "vampyre" to go away. * Camazotz wants rid of fangbanger and twoofing * NyteMuse agrees w/Sylvere <M_Belanger> I blame Polidori for "vampyre" and I still haven't forgiven him. <Lono> I agree.. Bickering over terms is useless...and perhaps even harmfull... especially its small portion of the community that is too stuck in their ways, for who the disagreements of sang and psi, will no doubt never cease...it gets in the way of the message, the more inportant info. <AncientKhan> The ones becoming the new adults deserve a better example of what it's like to be an adult than what the OVC currently gives. <M_Belanger> So, back to personal accountability and responsibility… <M_Belanger> Which I think would vastly improve our community. <Lono> Personal accountability and responsibility how exactly? <AncientKhan> By not acting like a jerk (not pointed at anyone). <Camazotz> Michelle and Khan... exactly. <AcrophobicPixie> zilchy - that a good or bad thing? <M_Belanger> Well, ideally, every adult should have enough sense to consider the ramifications of their words and actions upon others. <M_Belanger> However, given that this is not the "best of all possible worlds," I think we should make an effort to encourage a certain level of responsibility. <xeurika> I agree, but unfortunately the accountability part is the tough to enforce. Accountable to who? Who enforces? Who draws the line? <Camazotz> Surely one should be respected because ones actions lead to it, nothing more or less. <Anshar> Talking about accountability online. Ah, the irony. <Camazotz> It's not all online though Anshar. <Camazotz> If I thought it was, I'd go kill myself now. <zilchy_> As for accountability - people need to understand that WE (the community) aren't a safety net. <Sylvere> I don't think that's likely to change. <M_Belanger> First, by setting examples ourselves, of course, but perhaps trying to put some social structures in place. <M_Belanger> Reviews of other peoples' sites, for example. <Camazotz> Xeurika's peer review was a great idea <xeurika> It's a worthy idea, Peer Review, but the devil is in the details which still need lots of ironing out. <Merticus> Without going into specifics and naming names there are people and actions by people in this community that should be called out publicy. Nothing to do with "enforcement" - more a statement that x, y, z behavior is clearly outside any accepted standard this community holds - unsafe feeding, abuse, impersonation, plagirism, threats, etc. <AcrophobicPixie> I have no clue how people see me, and honestly, I'm not going to cry over it. I have more serious things to cry over than some random person I'll never meet thinking I'm the wicked witch. <Isealdor> Personally, on the accountability thing, there is no governing force, there is no set of rules or bylaws that everyone follows, etc...there's no way to be accountable besides to logic and truth. If people want that, go find a few channels and be willing to actually troll yourselves. <M_Belanger> I know that gets into dangerous territory of honest reviews vs. opinions. <M_Belanger> And I think, Merticus we can call them out without naming names… <Camazotz> Sometimes we NEED to name names... The time HAS to come. <M_Belanger> We can write articles for our sites and blog about the BEHAVIOR, not the PERSON, and explain why it's not acceptable. * Anshar agrees with Michelle * NyteMuse agrees with Michelle <Merticus> Exactly - both by setting examples and stating our own convictions in the general sense. <Isealdor> If someone has a problem with something that someone else says, or wants someone called out, then actually do it, and back it up, and keep it up until you're satisfied. But I dont think anyone can expect the community as a whole to be policed that way, and certainly not self-policed by everyone in it. <AcrophobicPixie> Or they totally take what's said out of context and totally go into a hissy fit of enormous proportions. <Anshar> Nothing will be served by open criticism of one another or of outsiders. <Camazotz> Anshar, I take your point to a degree, but say you have proof that someone's creating drama, why not call them on it? <Camazotz> Otherwise it becomes he said, she said. <Anshar> Camazotz: because you sully your own name while doing it. <xeurika> I agree with Michelle, also naming tends to give the drama seekers exactly what they are looking for. <Isealdor> The way I see it, there are two options; people either call others out and everything erupts in dramafest, or we promote people actually objectively and logically examining philosophies and beliefs and opinions and making up their own minds. <M_Belanger> I also wouldn't object to a little "No Sharkey" icon we can pass around, much like the old NO RPG icons ... but maybe that's just me. <Lono> We had that Michelle... but we thought it would be advertizing him. <M_Belanger> I think it would be easier to do NO Jonathon Sharkey, simply because I don't think most of us recognize him as even a part of our community. <Sylvere> Michelle: The problem is that the "problem children" never think we're talking about *them* unless we name name <NyteMuse> Sylvere: True, but at least other people may be made aware. <M_Belanger> Well, I'm less concerned about the problem children getting the message -- realistically, they won't & they don't care -- but I think we need to clarify for others that the examples those problem children set should not be followed. <Merticus> How many of you in this chat have reached out to a House, group, organization etc. that you did not agree with to learn more about them by talking with their participants? Or how many are friends with individuals who follow different paths in this community than your own - vastly different? <Merticus> ie: How many of you have taken the time to personally engage the individual(s) you disagree with in this community AND who have appeared in media spots you didn't care for. Spoken with them personally? * NyteMuse raises hand * Sylvere raises hand * AcrophobicPixie raises hand * sarasvati raises hand * Lono raises hand * Isealdor raises hand * AncientKhan raises hand <Sylvere> I was part of Pandora's Global Vampire Network <Sylvere> Everyone was welcome. It was the UN of the community long before DN or VVC. <Isealdor> I make a point to get to know the people I disagree with the most even before trying to get to know the ones I do agree with, honestly. <NyteMuse> I guess somewhat, but maybe not the big-ticket ones. <Imon> ~raises hands~ <AcrophobicPixie> I've never really met any of the "famous" ones that I dislike/disagree with. <Merticus> It's not a terrible idea to see what people in this community are really like - what their beliefs are when you take them out of their element, etc. Basically just don't be in the habit of discounting individuals by association or flippantly. <M_Belanger> What I think we should focus on would be articles clarifying examples of bad behavior/decisions. <M_Belanger> These would serve two purposes: helping to educate newbies, but also establishing that we do not condone such behavior to any outsiders who happen to stumble upon our sites. <Isealdor> Michelle: I disagree. I would rather see “good” behavior promoted than bad behavior ranted on. <AcrophobicPixie> Isleador: It could work if it were even on the promoting good behavior as well as going "This is a no-no". <M_Belanger> There are some things that have been done in the name of the community or in association with it that require some kind of commentary. <M_Belanger> Even if it's just one or two articles considering the erroneous connections drawn between the community and say, pedophiles or mass murderers. <M_Belanger> And I think we HAVE to be very careful not to make such articles rants or attacks <M_Belanger> That would only feed drama & accomplish little of use. <xeurika> I tend to agree with Isealdor. There's many who see a rule book as a checklist. <NyteMuse> Isealdor: I see merit in both approaches. <AncientKhan> I think we need both. If our concern is newcomers and the curious, we need to make examples of both. <NyteMuse> When I'm educating my students, I give both good examples and bad examples <Isealdor> I can agree with both, but I think the promoting the good is far, far more important that calling out the bad. <Sylvere> That would require we come to an agreement on what "good" and "bad" behaviors are. <Sylvere> I seem to recall some discussions about an alternative to the Black Veil that went up in flames. <M_Belanger> Sylvere -- shooting up a school. <M_Belanger> There are some things that are no-brainers. <Isealdor> Sylvere: Not really. It just means that we each say what we believe and why, and then perhaps engage in logical debate on what we disagree with. <Merticus> Can we avoid assigning a "name" or "one central article" to such discussions or examples? ie: the disdain for the Black Veil - all versions and forms (now confusing to most) is still a divisive reality. <M_Belanger> Exactly <M_Belanger> We have our opinions. Write opinion articles. Op-Ed * NyteMuse agrees w/ Michelle <M_Belanger> NO ONE in any community anywhere is going to agree 100% on what is right, what is wrong, and what was just plain stupid. <Sylvere> Op-ed just opens the door to more loopholes. <Sylvere> At least with a central document as a basis, it's easier to say "I disagree with Part X for Y reason". <Isealdor> We all have different views, how about promoting mature, calm, and logical debates rather than just saying "this is bad" or "dont be like XXX" <Camazotz> None of this covers how we move past the arguments AMONGST ourselves. <Merticus> In this type of community loopholes will always exist - best we can do is be engaged in our own local community and watch for signs of those in trouble or causing trouble. We can't interact with this community from a position outside of where people are activing debating/seeking support/etc. Also, we equally can't afford to ignore some of the e-mails and other correspondence we receive from people. <M_Belanger> Certainly everyone on the Internet has an opinion and is not afraid to express it. <M_Belanger> And that does not in anyway improve the value of those opinions. <M_Belanger> But gathered here, we have a diversity of respectable, intelligent, and motivated members of our community. <M_Belanger> Our words carry more weight than the words of many others. We should accept and make use of that. <AncientKhan> Michelle: Even we are not always the example that should be given. <Gabrielx> I don't believe because our words may carry more weight those whose don't should be ignored. <M_Belanger> Should they be ignored? No. But we have an opportunity to promote our message in a more effective manner than most. We should accept that and make us of it. <Isealdor> Michelle: That's partially my point. Make use of that by setting examples of what we would like to see, not trying to tear down anything we dont like. <Isealdor> The latter, to me, falls much into the territory of ego-trip. <Lono> We, well most of us with information sites, are here to help the few and the new. As such I think we make ourselves readily available for the most part... the trick is to be vigil of that disconnect that happens. * Camazotz wonders who the "we" being mentioned is.... WE here cannot agree on how to be civil with each other most times. <M_Belanger> Camazotz -- true enough <M_Belanger> I don't think this "we" needs to agree in order to make us of our collective positions. <Camazotz> True Michelle <Camazotz> But equally I think one needs to be careful of appearing as being of one mindset, when VVC is a group of many (and often loud) opinions). <NyteMuse> Camazotz: Hence a focus on dialogue being a good idea...dialogue is additive, not subtractive. As many ideas as possible. <M_Belanger> Well, for everyone's sakes, let me clarify that when I say that "we" should write articles and state our opinions about actions, behaviors, or events related to the community ... <M_Belanger> I mean that "we" should be honest in expressing our own takes on things. <M_Belanger> I do not in any way expect nor advocate a concensus. <Merticus> Agrees with Michelle. This is one of the reasons why I like having the individual profile sections on the web site. <Merticus> e. Other topics you’d like to bring up for discussion? <Isealdor> This moves a little into topic e, but how about debate panels? <NyteMuse> Isleador: Debate or Dialogue? <Isealdor> NyteMuse: Both <NyteMuse> Both I could agree with...focusing solely on debate, I think we'd be too limited. <M_Belanger> I still think we should also try to make podcast/recording debates work -- but after the recording issues with the first one we tried, we need to find a better medium than Skype. <M_Belanger> Or we need to severely limit the number of people in such a roundtable -- 4 or 5 max. <Merticus> Starting in January I hope we revisit the roundtable and seriously produce the chats and discussions (video/audio) we began work on in 2008. <Sylvere> Yahoo has voice chat. Does anyone know if it's better for conferences than Skype? <AcrophobicPixie> I've used it before, but not for recording, Sylvere. <AncientKhan> I like the roundtable. It gives a better example than written internet posts. <NyteMuse> TalkShoe is nice, but requires using telephones to call in and contribute. <NyteMuse> I mean, I've got tons of excessive minutes on my cell, so as long as I have reception, I'm good...but that might not be the situation for others. <Sylvere> I’d rather not tie up my phone. <Isealdor> Crazy suggestion, but has anyone considered ham radios? <AcrophobicPixie> Isleador: It's against HAM laws <AcrophobicPixie> And would you really want anyone with a call sign getting in on it? * Sylvere is not going out to buy a HAM radio <Isealdor> No, it isnt, not if everyone gets a license or works with someone licensed. <Isealdor> It would just have to be recorded and put out somewhere else. <AcrophobicPixie> Also, getting everyone their license and the proper equipment so we can all talk, that would be a pain. <AcrophobicPixie> Isleador: I think they'd consider it a religious thing, and religious things are against the rules. <Isealdor> I actually didn’t think about HAM until last night, and like I said, a bit of a crazy suggestion... but at least it's stable. And can be connected over Echolink to internet, too. <AcrophobicPixie> Well, we could bounce off of one of the OSCAR's or the ISS to get a better bounce to everyone, but *shrugs*. <AcrophobicPixie> And do we want to keep everyone to a tech-no code or do we want to expand further so we can use the little used bandwidth? <xeurika> There are quite a few free conference call services. Generally you can use Skype to connect to the conference line, but it has less limitations than a purely Skype conference. <NyteMuse> Xeurika: You need to pay for most of the conference call services, I think... I mean, to connect with Skype. <Sylvere> I still want to do video. <Gabrielx> As far as education I really enjoyed what Michelle was doing with her podcast project with Chris Miller and Shadowdance. <Gabrielx> I found that very informative and reaching. <M_Belanger> We're still doing it, albeit intermittently, given both of our careers. <Merticus> IV. Business Reminders <Merticus> Refer to the forum for all current discussions. <Merticus> Thank you all for coming! <Merticus> <<<<<<END MEETING LOG>>>>>>
April 25, 2009 - VVC Meeting
Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) Public Meeting – April 25, 2009
Attendees (21):
Cole St. Valentine – Black Lamp Bay & Carpe Noctem Meetup Group Corvis Nocturnum – Dark Moon Press & Independent Representative Eric Bloodstorm – Portland Vampire Community Diaboluslupus – Southern California Meetup Group Gabriel – House Lost Haven Gypsy – House Scarlet Moon Isealdor – Vampire Realm Of Darkness Merticus – Atlanta Vampire Alliance (AVA) & Suscitatio Enterprises, LLC Michelle Belanger – House Kheperu & MichelleBelanger.com NyteMuse – House Rosa Ravena – House Lost Haven RavenHarte – Clann Caladvwlch Reija – Independent Representative Sable Twilight – House Vespertine Shishain – House Quinotaur SphynxCatVP – SphynxCatVP Real Vampires Support Site Sylvere ap Leanan – Real Vampires Community Alliance (RVCA) Vyrdolak – By Light Unseen Xeurika – House Quinotaur Zero – Atlanta Vampire Alliance (AVA) & Suscitatio Enterprises, LLC Zilchy – Independent Representative Discussion Agenda:
I. Meeting Info & Introductions
Welcome to the first public meeting of Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) for 2009. If you have not attended a VVC meeting before or are reading this for the first time please briefly take note of how this meeting will be conducted. The transcript from tonight’s meeting is being logged and will be made publicly available.
Topics will be presented in the order they appear on the agenda (VVC members may refer to the forum or their e-mail for tonight’s schedule). Please do not skip ahead and please do not suggest discussion of items not on the agenda until at the end of each major discussion topic.
Feel free to speak your mind on any and all topics in a civil manner and offer any supporting information, links, or material as needed. Thank you for coming and now let’s begin!
II. Background & Introduction
VVC was founded January 2006.
The purpose of the Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) is to develop friendly relations among the various Houses, Covens, Orders, and other organizations of the vampire community; to encourage cooperation in solving community related problems and in promoting respect for the views, ideas, and opinions of others without seeking to establish a unifying or governing body; and to be a center for harmonizing the actions of groups in attaining these ends. – August 8, 2006
Voices Of The Vampire Community (VVC) does not assert itself as the exclusive organization of leaders or notable persons in the vampi(y)re community nor do we view ourselves or our actions as legislative or authoritarian.
The members of the VVC are representative of multiple groups, Houses, Orders, paths, beliefs, and segments of the vampi(y)re community who meet and are able to put aside personal differences to work together to discuss, suggest, implement, and support projects, ideas, and other intellectual works that help to improve the overall community.
We are available to answer questions through the community feedback form available at the site above.
III. Discussion
As a departure from the specific matters we discuss in business meetings, tonight’s meeting will take a broader and more relevant approach to the vampi(y)re community. Opinions offered from members of the VVC who are unable to attend tonight’s meeting will be posted first after the asking of each question. All present members please allow time for this to occur prior to posting your own response. Just as a reminder, conversation is to be kept civil, statements or claims backed by example where necessary, and in cases of insuperable disagreements; a concession between parties to respectfully agree to disagree.
Let’s start the evening with these questions:
a. Keeping Our Community & Our Donors Safe - A Three-Part Question: (1) What steps can we take as a community to responsibly and accurately inform of potential threats or suspect behavior to our members and donors? (2) How can we properly assess the severity of threats and work effectively with law enforcement and other officials when necessary to ensure our safety? (3) What educational initiatives can we promote and/or offer to assist the members of our community and others in learning about the warning signs and behavioral patterns of potentially dangerous individuals, groups, or cults?
b. Evaluating & Responding To Offers From The Media - A Three-Part Question: (1) What expectations should we have of the media and what questions should we ask prior to consenting to participate in an article or documentary? (2) How can we determine what media requests originate from legitimate sources and what, if any, reasonable expectation of personal privacy should one have for each type of media (print, radio, and film) should they consent to participate? (3) If and when we decide a media proposal is worthwhile to pursue, how do we best match the requests and needs of the project to the specific members of the community who may be able to assist?
c. Improving The Quality & Availability Of The Information Presented On Real Vampirism: How can we improve upon the existing information on our web sites, groups, and forums while at the same time increasingly our visibility to the newly awakened and seasoned veterans alike who are actively searching for information on real vampirism? Let’s discuss for a moment the benefits of ensuring we host the most current and responsible information pertaining to vampirism, feeding practices, and donor care, coupled with search engine optimization (SEO), streamlined web site design, and cross-directory linking to other web sites.
d. The Vampire Community - 2012 & Beyond: Should we have goals, defined agendas, or other aspirations for the vampire community? If so, what should they be and why? Where do you see the greater community headed in the short-term and long-term? Presently, what do you view as the greatest hindrance to the growth and cohesiveness of both your local community and the greater community?
e. Other topics you’d like to bring up for discussion?
IV. Business Reminders
<Merticus> <<<<<< BEGIN MEETING LOG >>>>>> <Merticus> Voices of the Vampire Community <Merticus> Public Meeting - April 25, 2009 <Merticus> Discussion Agenda: <Merticus> I. Meeting Information <Merticus> Welcome to the first public meeting of Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) for 2009. If you have not attended a VVC meeting before or are reading this for the first time please briefly take note of how this meeting will be conducted. The transcript from tonight’s meeting is being logged and will be made publicly available. <Merticus> Topics will be presented in the order they appear on the agenda (VVC members may refer to the forum or their e-mail for tonight’s schedule). Please do not skip ahead and please do not suggest discussion of items not on the agenda until at the end of each major discussion topic. <Merticus> Feel free to speak your mind on any and all topics in a civil manner and offer any supporting information, links, or material as needed. Thank you for coming and now let’s begin! <Merticus> II. Background & Introduction <Merticus> VVC was founded January 2006. <Merticus> The purpose of the Voices of the Vampire Community (VVC) is to develop friendly relations among the various Houses, Covens, Orders, and other organizations of the vampire community; to encourage cooperation in solving community related problems and in promoting respect for the views, ideas, and opinions of others without seeking to <Merticus> establish a unifying or governing body; and to be a center for harmonizing the actions of groups in attaining these ends. – August 8, 2006 <Merticus> Voices Of The Vampire Community (VVC) does not assert itself as the exclusive organization of leaders or notable persons in the vampi(y)re community nor do we view ourselves or our actions as legislative or authoritarian. <Merticus> The members of the VVC are representative of multiple groups, Houses, Orders, paths, beliefs, and segments of the vampi(y)re community who meet and are able to put aside personal differences to work together to discuss, suggest, implement, and support projects, ideas, and other intellectual works that help to improve the overall community. <Merticus> For more information please visit our web site at: http://www.veritasvosliberabit.com/vvc.html <Merticus> We are available to answer questions through the community feedback form available at the site above. <Merticus> III. Discussion <Merticus> As a departure from the specific matters we discuss in business meetings, tonight’s meeting will take a broader and more relevant approach to the vampi(y)re community. Opinions offered from members of the VVC who are unable to attend tonight’s meeting will be posted first after the asking of each question. <Merticus> All present members please allow time for this to occur prior to posting your own response. Just as a reminder, conversation is to be kept civil, statements or claims backed by example where necessary, and in cases of insuperable disagreements; a concession between parties to respectfully agree to disagree. <Merticus> Let’s start the evening with these questions: <Merticus> a. Keeping Our Community & Our Donors Safe - A Three-Part Question: (1) What steps can we take as a community to responsibly and accurately inform of potential threats or suspect behavior to our members and donors? (2) How can we properly assess the severity of threats and work effectively with law enforcement and other officials when necessary to ensure our safety? <Merticus> (3) What educational initiatives can we promote and/or offer to assist the members of our community and others in learning about the warning signs and behavioral patterns of potentially dangerous individuals, groups, or cults? <Diaboluslupus> I think because of the national/international scope of the community we should focus on warning the community about verified threats - where someone has filed charges or sworn out a complaint. We should avoid hearsay unless there is some good collaboration. There are often a lot of wild claims and down right libel that gets tossed around the community. I was a victim of smear campaign a few years ago where a moderator for local group went around claiming that I was sexual predator. <Diaboluslupus> There are a lot of "borderline" cases. One person's nut case can be another person’s ideal match. Outside of the criminal action - we should also try to monitor cult like behavior. There are various accepted "cult checklists". I have some encounters with vamp groups that have cult like or cult of personality traits - such as telling members who they can associate with, etc. <Diaboluslupus> I think this could be served by educating the community about what is a legally actionable. I've found that a lot of people in the community are poorly informed about laws against stalking, harassment, and intimidation. <Isealdor> Education is key. We're likely not going to be aware of all of the crazies and potentially dangerous groups or people, if for no reason than that often the most dangerous ones are the ones who blend in the best. Instead, and instead of trying to make some sort of "blacklist" for the community at large, I think we need to emphasize educating our members on what is considered safe or not. <Isealdor> We as a community can warn each other about the extreme crazies, anyone who has a past record of abuse, unsafe practices, etc, of course, but that's not going to do anything about the majority. Obvious community precautions, though, would be to not make it too easy for a stalker, not support unsafe practices, educating members about what is or isn’t ok, etc. <Isealdor> I strongly support that anything of any consequence needs to be taken to law enforcement. The community can help warn about some of the worst situations, but most of it really falls to the individual and far outside the control of the community. As soon as it strays into the territory of potential legal matters, there's really very little the community can do about any of it. <Isealdor> Being open and discussing a lot of the potential issues with members, providing warning sign lists and education material about the cults or dangerous behavior, encouraging people to constantly question the motives and goals of any group/cult, and providing as much full disclosure of perspectives and information about different individuals and groups as they apply to potentially dangerous behaviors I think are the most important things to try to prepare and help members recognize the warning signs. <M_Belanger> First, we should maintain informative websites and other real-time resources (reputable meet-ups, for example), where people can go to learn about what behavior and expectations are acceptable and ethical. Those of us who run such things should maintain a list of other sites and real-time organizations that are reputable and informative in these areas and share this list freely. <M_Belanger> Back-end communication among the individuals who maintain such sites and real-time groups should be carried out, and information about potential threats and abuses should be shared in good faith among these organizers. We need also to stop viewing law enforcement and other authorities in an “us against them” light, instead using the law to our advantage when we are confronted by threats and blatantly illegal behavior within the community. <M_Belanger> As a part of this, I feel that we also need to increase awareness across the board within the community on what exactly constitutes illegal behavior in terms of donor abuse, assault, battery, criminal threatening, and so forth. If people learn how to recognize problem situations before they get out of control, they have a better chance at getting out of those situations before they get out of hand. <M_Belanger> Out-reach to other fringe communities that have to deal with similar issues of potential abuse coupled with a fear of reporting and/or distrust for official legal channels would help us greatly. A lot of this territory has already been covered by organizations in the Pagan, GBLTQ, and BDSM communities. <M_Belanger> At the very least, we should seek out their resources and FAQs on these issues and crosslink with established vampire webpages – and we should not be afraid to contact people in these communities directly to attempt to build bridges and work with them to promote knowledge of these vital issues across our communities. <RavenHarte> I think first of all clarification what exactly constitutes threats or suspect behavior needs to be made. Do you mean a vampire who routinely uses unsafe practices (sangs who haven’t been tested, psi's who get donors drunk, etc) or do you mean a member of the community who is actually issuing treats of violence or is luring underage donors, etc? I mean we can’t do the Chicken Little thing. There has to be real proof of threat not just rumor or hear say or when a real problem comes people will discount it. <RavenHarte> Second I think if we have a real problem child - a vampire who routinely uses unsafe practices - a donor who is lying about being tested or their actual status but is letting themselves be a blood doll etc, then people in that person's community need to actually make it known to the person the behavior isn’t acceptable. <RavenHarte> If you stand idly by and watch someone do something unsafe, you are complicit... you are showing that person no one will do crap about it. Where is the incentive to stop then? It’s not something that can be worked on some message board somewhere. Those who are seeing it need to be doing something about it. *I* can’t do anything about someone practicing unsafely in say NY and shouldn’t because all I've got is hearsay on the matter. <RavenHarte> We first have to empower each other by making sure everyone is on the same page about what is NOT OK. Supporting each other about saying no to unsafe situations. Supporting each other when small violations are made. You'll never know a threat is coming if donors are too afraid to tell anyone when the small violations are being made. And it usually starts small. <RavenHarte> Getting the Donors Bill of Rights type info out on EVERY board, website, etc. Making sure that in general people know whats a safe practice vs. unsafe. Getting Bonewits' info on how to ID a cult info on every site and message board. Making sure vampyric workshop style events like Twilight always have a Donor's panel or class etc. where donors alone can meet and learn better how to manage their vamp relationships. <RavenHarte> I mean seriously I think all vamp/donor relationships should be contracted the same way the BDSM community does - where its clear what the vamp wants, what the donor wants, limitations, etc. Maybe some of that info needs to be on more vamp websites and message boards - the contracting BDSM communities do. <Shishain> We need to be open and honest with each other and with our donors/family/anyone else affected by our activities. This would require a significant effort at reducing the cattiness/drama in the community; VVC and DN seem to have made an excellent start at that. If we can get everyone else to follow suit in that regard, we're flying. <Shishain> Threat assessment is tricky. You can't usually tell a predator by their looks-- ask any kid who's been molested by the nice fellow next door-- and over the internet it's even harder. We need to keep our eyes and ears open, use our best judgment, and communicate with each other. <Shishain> Before we can work effectively with law enforcement and other officials, we need to get them to take us seriously. That, I think, is a few decades out yet. There's some good work going on, but it'll take time. Unfortunately, I really don't have any more productive/helpful suggestions on this front. <Shishain> If I recall correctly, there's a document kicking about on the warning signs of a cult. That's a good place to start, and I think a few folks have already gotten it out there. <xeurika> I think that different situations require different levels of response. It should be common sense that any illegal activity be turned over to proper authorities early on. For donor safety, perhaps we need to reach out to the donor community on their input on what actions would make them feel most comfortable. <xeurika> Identifying potential threats in individuals and groups should be balanced with the need to protect individuals and groups from political or unfounded claims. <Zero> I really think that this community needs to sit down and decide what's OK behavior and what's not, and establish a culture where we all call people out when they do things that we don't want to tolerate. I hate top-down declarations of status; there are lots of problems with a system that allows people to be in favor or disfavor based on their actions, but our biggest problem is strategic - even if we came up with a completely universal and <Zero> totally just system of standards, which would never be abused, we're not centrally organized and there's no way to enforce it. I think the best way might be to help individual community members establish their own internal assessment so that a problem person can't simply switch cities to keep doing his/her same crap to a new community. <Zero> In terms of actually dangerous behavior, I think it's perfectly reasonable to use societal standards of legal behavior - hard drug use, recruiting for cults (technically not illegal, but will get you followed by three-letter agencies), violence, did I mention hard drug use, etc.? We can introduce physical safety elements into the community culture which other subcultures have used effectively- educating about problem behavior (yes, the drugs are a problem, not just an unsavory personality trait), <Zero> set up cultural expectations and guidelines for personal safety and for enforcing legal standards of behavior (i.e. call the cops, talk to the club owner about trespassing individuals, talk to the bouncers about keeping an eye on certain people). <Zero> I would love for our various communities to have dialogue with their local law enforcement. This is not always possible, but I would really like to see some sort of system where officers who already have relationships with their local communities might be able to facilitate introductions in other cities and towns, either informally, or in the guise of a seminar or other event. <Zero> Also, charlatans like Don Rimer and Dawn Perlmutter go cross-country for speaking engagements with law enforcement agencies, and basically lie to them outright. We could do something similar but without the blatant lying. <Zero> As a very basic start, I always point people at the Bonewits’ cult evaluation framework. I think it's a good tool for community members to use to evaluate the claims and nature of any group they join; it's as applicable to a messianic kool-aid cult as it is to AmWay or Mary Kay, and can help individuals (and community leaders) start to think about group-dynamic issues like social control and manipulative behavior. I've seen neighborhood homeowners associations that could benefit from an ABCDEF evaluation. <Zero> In general, we as a community are not shy about voicing our values of individual thought and personal truths, but I think that we should eventually make our value of individualism part of the architecture in the same way that safety issues are brought to the foreground. <Zero> We could do with some formal statements that a solitary path is OK, and that groups and Houses are there to facilitate personal path choices that individuals have already made, not to make them for you. I know that most Houses have a screening process to weed out the impressionable, but I'm not sure if that is well-known to the general community, especially the newest members. <Zero> Part of the reason for the community going more public in the first place (back in the early 1990's) was to speak up and provide a voice of truth to counteract the worrying number of scam artists who were preying on the fringes of the community. We've cut back on so much of that by simply being out there and available, and being vocal about the character of the community and what we are and are not. <Merticus> (1) When a particular situation comes to our attention we should try to obtain both sides of the story and then make the best possible determination as to the validity and seriousness of the threat (anything from violence to unsafe feeding practices). Granted, this is a very murky area because everyone’s idea of a ‘threat’ may be different. <Merticus> Those we know who are in direct contact with the individual(s), reside in their geographic area, or otherwise peripherally involved in the matter should be privately contacted. If there is a direct threat to an individual’s personal safety or life, law enforcement should be notified and detailed records of all e-mails, messages, and phone calls kept. <Merticus> If donors are being abused by a vampire in some manner there are several Donor Networks (Black Swan Haven in particular) who should be notified so that others don’t fall victim. <Merticus> (2) I’m a strong advocate for maintaining good relations with local enforcement officials who are level-headed and willing to listen to your situation. Officers, family crisis counselors, and intervention specialists are human beings like everyone else and more often than not are willing to listen if approached sincerely and professionally. <Merticus> You may even find that many are members of other subcultures, the pagan community, or share similar interests so it often goes a long way to ask around within your friend groups, clubs, and organizations. <Merticus> (3) Isaac Bonewits’ Advanced Bonewits’ Cult Danger Evaluation Frame should be linked to throughout the community via our web sites (http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html) along with the BITE Model that concerns mind control and cults (http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/articles/BITE.htm). <Merticus> Additionally, resource guides exploring the common indicators of sexual and physical abusers, anti-social personality disorder, and recognizing erratic behaviors or warning signs of severe (clinical) depression coupled with suicidal and/or homicidal tendencies. <Merticus> If you live in a major metropolitan area you should keep a listings of counseling centers, shelters, and if your situation permits host a temporary safe house. The bottom line is that if we see something transpiring on our forums, in our groups, or offline that seems suspicious or troubling we should be willing to take the time to explore the matter rather than pass it off as someone else’s problem. <Zilchy> 1) I believe it was on LadyCG's page, where there was a list of characteristics that indicate a predator or roleplayer with intent to be predatory on newcomers to the community. I'm also an avid proponent of the ABCDEF, which I've recently reviewed in a video. <Zilchy> 2) Proper assessment is difficult in "fringe" groups such as ours, but I think that perhaps establishing something like what Dawn Perlmutter has ("The Institute for the Research of Organized & Ritual Violence", now "Symbol Intel"). Of course it might be somewhat difficult to justify to law enforcement that we're not part of the problem, as identified in Perlmutter's text - but the refutation of her points and credentials has already been done. <Zilchy> 3) What educational initiatives can we promote and/or offer to assist the members of our community and others in learning about the warning signs and behavioral patterns of potentially dangerous individuals, groups, or cults? <Zilchy> Again, the ABCDEF is fantastic at this - also I believe this would be a great question to pose to someone who actually deals with unstable people on a daily basis. While there are guides on the internet for identifying unstable people I think it would be more credible to hear such instruction "straight from the horse's mouth," so to speak. <NyteMuse> Doesn't this get somewhat into the tricky gray area of the notion of blacklists? I mean, I can see merit in warning others, but posting those sort of open blanket condemnations seems to be rather opening-for-trouble. <NyteMuse> The BITE method Michelle dug up is good as well...somewhat shorter than ABCDEF <Merticus> Yes, I mentioned in the link above. <Merticus> BITE Model - Mind Control, etc. * Zilchy makes a note to review BITE <Sylvere> The majority of us aren’t law enforcement officials or forensic psychologists. Any action we take without evidence sufficient to meet the burden of proof for a formal investigation is legally slander or libel. Without the proper training, we are not qualified to assess the severity of any perceived threats. Neither are we qualified to work with law enforcement or other officials. <Sylvere> We have neither the responsibility nor the right to inform others of “potential threats or suspect behavior.” By taking this upon ourselves, we become little more than rumor mongers. What we can and should do is provide access to resources such as the Bonewits’ Cult Evaluation Frame or the Donor’s Bill of Rights. From there, it is up to each individual to determine whether or not a person or group is a threat or acting in a responsible manner. <Sylvere> While we are free to give our opinions or present information *to* law enforcement or other officials if asked, we can only offer this as a personal view, not fact. What benefit the other party takes from the information and views given is up to that person or group. <SphynxCatVP> A-1/A-3) Information is a good start - ensure as many eyeballs as possible see things like the cult evaluation frame, and the sociopath profile. Get more discussion of same on forums so that people who don't visit the sites also hear something about it. <SphynxCatVP> A-2) We need input from law enforcement - mainly to ensure that what we interpret as a threat is also a legal threat, and what we can/should do in both assessing and dealing with it. We need to be sure our responses are above-board and legal. :) <Gabrielx> Personally half of my family is in law enforcement so it's a tad easier for me to contact them or others that are in the field to assess risk and legality. <ColeVonCat> Would donor safety classes be a good idea? How could we advertise such things? <EricBloodstorm> As far as donor safety classes, I would think that each communities leadership should over see that. <NyteMuse> Here's a question: do we have any places available where someone who HAS been the victim of abuse can go to a "safe place" to report such things, with the assurance that it will be handled properly? If not, could we create one or some? <SableTwilight> What about working with shelter and anti-violence organizations? <SableTwilight> At least to help make them aware of the subculture <ColeVonCat> Eric: Let's say I want to set up such a class? How would I reach the potential donors in the area? <EricBloodstorm> In my area? <ColeVonCat> In any area. <ColeVonCat> Well, I am pretty much the community leader out here. <Vyrdolak> D.V. and similar organizations tend to be extremely negative about fringe groups <EricBloodstorm> Well there is the option of having a community leader host or you can use bulletin boards like the donor bank on SangSpace. <EricBloodstorm> Personally I think forums on line that are targeted at donors would be a great start. <Ravena> 1. Except in exceptional and very rare circumstances, I don't think it's generally a good practice to start bad mouthing individuals. A lot of time the issue is more personal than anything and people end up soiling a person's reputation over something petty. Instead, educating on what would make someone dangerous or a possible threat and how to recognize these people, would be a lot better. Members and donors should be able to make their own decisions about <Ravena> 2. Well, we can measure the severity of the threat by what harm is being done. If someone is being harmed as a result of the person's illegal activities, then that's a good indication they need to be brought to the attention of law enforcement. If we see minors (or others) being harmed or sexually exploited, we should reporting it to the authorities, there should be no question about it. <NyteMuse> What about offering online classes? Like through Moodle or something? <ColeVonCat> Hmmm never tried it. <NyteMuse> Seems like from what I've seen on Black Swan Haven, the donors are quite spread out, much like the vamps. <Corvis> That is the highly recommended avenue for any responsible adult, I think. <ColeVonCat> Anyone have experience with online classes? <NyteMuse> I have friends who swear by it... we're looking into using it for House Rosa. <Ravena> What would the online classes be for? <NyteMuse> I teach online classes through a sort of amateur-coded site... it's tricky, but can be done. <EricBloodstorm> I went to some of the online classes via the Vampire Church. Some were ok and some were great. <Merticus> There have been times in the past where some of us have received direct information (photos, incident reports with police, etc.) of situations. In situations such as these what, if any, role do we have to inform individuals who are directly or indirectly involved with the individual in our community? I know it's "touchy legal ground" and some incidents are less gray than others. <Corvis> We have a responsibility as leaders, teachers, writers, etc. We cannot stand on the sidelines. <ColeVonCat> I think if we know someone involved with an individual we think is dangerous, we have a responsibility to tell that person to stay away. <Sylvere> We can't legally do that. * NyteMuse agrees with Sylvere <Ravena> We can warn the person, but most people don't really like being told what to do. <Reija> They're still entitled to free will. <ColeVonCat> Warn is what I meant. <SableTwilight> We can't tell people to stay away, but we can share our opinions and known information about an individual. <Sylvere> If we say or write anything, it's considered slander and libel. <SableTwilight> It's how some other alternative groups monitor themselves. <Sylvere> Not a territory I want to enter. <Vyrdolak> Sylvere - I have to disagree. <Vyrdolak> You can always talk to someone about a relationship--depends what you say. <Vyrdolak> I'm a certified domestic violence counselor, I've spent years doing just that. <Sylvere> Vyrdolak - You can if you like, but I'm not going to get sued. <Ravena> I think it's better just to teach people how to spot a predator or a cult mentality. <Ravena> Rather than pointing fingers at people. <NyteMuse> I'd see online donor classes possibly covering dangerous people/group evaluation (ABCDEF & BITE), health risks, how to meet people safely, negotiations, and the various tips on recovery afterwards. Possibly even some basic energy perception stuff. <SableTwilight> That would be good NyteMuse, but do they have to be classes? <NyteMuse> Hard to say, Sable. I mean, all of that information is out there, much of it in the same location (like Black Swan Haven) but it seems like some folk don't take it seriously or read it all the way. <NyteMuse> I see people take stuff more seriously if it's presented as a "class" <NyteMuse> With quizzes and tests and such. <ColeVonCat> Not if it's in a personal email or phone call to an individual we know. <ColeVonCat> People are still entitled to share opinions, legally. <GypsyHSM> You mean like if we openly dis the ToV for psionic training for pure power play? <GypsyHSM> What about this Madame X Vampyre Lounge thing on YouTube - this is going to go badly. <GypsyHSM> All houses are not the same and all do not wish to be represented in PVC with a Whip. <EricBloodstorm> I have an idea. <EricBloodstorm> There is a membership web site called "girl don’t hate him". <EricBloodstorm> Maybe form a membership website where people can simply share their negative experiences with vampires? <Ravena> I don't think that site is a good idea. <Ravena> Because there would be no way to validate the claims at all. <Ravena> Most forums are already set up for character assassination and bitch fests anyway. <Reija> If somebody chooses to make an informed decision to join a suicide cult, then that's their own choice... if they're pulled in not knowing what they are getting themselves into, then that's a different issue. <Sylvere> If we start "sharing opinions" what makes us any different than the rumor mongers? <Sylvere> If there's documented evidence like police reports, we can let people know those things exist. But I don't think it's in our best interest to start telling tales. <ColeVonCat> Sylvere: I am not letting a friend of mine get involved with a creep without at least mentioning why I think he/she is a creep and sharing whatever personal experience I might have. <ColeVonCat> From there, said friend can make his/her own decision. <Merticus> I don't think we're talking about a “blacklist” and a central "rumor mill" site etc. more than we are direct notification via e-mail, phone calls, etc. to specific individuals (rather than community-wide). <Zilchy> NyteMuse: What about articles that then spawn Socratic seminars? <NyteMuse> Zilchy, that too. Moodle allows for discussion forums and topics. <SableTwilight> It would still be a good resource NyteMuse. For instance, I spent most of a day today writing to a new donor helping her understand her experiences with links and being feed on. <NyteMuse> I'm completely with you, Sable, on still keeping all of that information out there...just suggesting it might not be the worst idea to consolidate that in a "class" and have it offered on BSH or something. <ColeVonCat> It's just about sharing information. <Sylvere> Cole: If it's your friend, that's one thing. It's a bit different when we start keeping a blacklist. <Merticus> I agree with the factual sharing of third-party information, documents, etc. - not subjective opinion or hearsay. <Merticus> Education with the warning signs is more paramount in my opinion. <ColeVonCat> No one's talking about a blacklist. <Ravena> I'm not for supporting a blacklist. * Sylvere agrees with Ravena * Merticus agrees with Sylvere and Ravena in so much as a blacklist - though I still believe we should be prudent if we're informed of a situation that goes beyond rumor and includes supporting legally filed complaints, etc. <SableTwilight> Yeah, go with Zilchy's idea and do a combined resource center and classes :) <ColeVonCat> I agree that classes on recognizing "red flags" for potential (first-time) donors might be a good idea. <Sylvere> A class on "Here's what a cult is and here's how to recognize red flags" doesn't have to mention anyone by name either. <Sylvere> It's a positive action rather than a negative reaction. <SableTwilight> Indeed. <NyteMuse> Mmhmm. And, rather than creating something new, I'd prefer seeing it all in one place and just getting it more activity. Black Swan Haven is a good idea, and the admins are good people. <ColeVonCat> A lot of people might think that certain things are just "what vampires do", if they do not have prior experience. <NyteMuse> Dear gods yes...some people pop up on Black Swan Haven with... interesting questions. <Ravena> Which is why we would provide them with reliable sane info. <Zilchy> Cole - In line with that, why not a universal standard of classes and a sort of requirement that in order to take further action in the community that you need to check the block of having attended the classes? <Zilchy> And/or taking a test on the material and passing out (like the US CLEP program). <ColeVonCat> We basically want a class that says "Vampires should be sane" and if they are not... it's dangerous. <GypsyHSM> How would we film blood lust, psivamp nerve burn syndromes, and the problems - House Scarlet Moon is not the happy household of vamps? <GypsyHSM> No one really focuses on the downside in any of the books, the info, etc. <NyteMuse> Universal standard of classes, Zilchy? Establishing standards on “anything” in the VC is an uphill battle on one leg… * SableTwilight chuckles... can’t help but think about SSC (Safe, Sane, & Consensual) <Sylvere> RACK (Risk-Aware Consensual Kink) baby! <SableTwilight> I agree Sylvere. <ColeVonCat> I think just training going over the methods already established, but with emphasis that the VC is NOT an exception to any of the rules or sanity chacks. <Zilchy> NyteMuse, I'm just saying that there should be a universal set of courses that everyone should be required to have taken regarding safe practices. <Ravena> No one should be required to do anything. <Ravena> We aren't rulers. <NyteMuse> Who's going to require or enforce? * NyteMuse agrees with Ravena <ColeVonCat> Zilchy: There should be for BDSM in general, or anyone wanting to join any religious organization <Sylvere> We don't have to require it, but we can strongly suggest. <ColeVonCat> I don't think it's happening <Zilchy> True Ravena... I guess it should be left for individual houses to decide. <NyteMuse> Now, if the movers n shakers want to post a link to said classes and “recommend”, it's all good. <SableTwilight> re: required classes for kink groups - that only works because the spaces have to and can regulate who enters and participates in them. In cases of donors, I'm not sure that most locations have central areas where vamp folks congregate in that these sort of things would work. <NyteMuse> True, but if a good class is created and made available and known, it can spread to multiple locations as like a bonus when folks know about it. <SableTwilight> Well a good class would inspire participation in itself and might be useful for presenters looking to engage various related communities. <SableTwilight> For example, if I had the material I would likely use it for doing a presentation at one of the local kink clubs or with the local pagan/new age groups. <Merticus> How many of you here have the ABCDEF or BITE method clearly linked or prominent on their web site? <Ravena> Not me. <Ravena> But hadn't seen BITE before. <NyteMuse> We do on Kherete, but not Rosa. <Sylvere> Merticus: I don't yet, but after graduation both will go up. <ColeVonCat> Well now, houses can set any rules they want for potential members. <Ravena> Yes, but not everyone is in a house. <Zilchy> But then we're back in the same predicament we're in now - how to educate people who are just coming in. <Ravena> Make the resources available. <SphynxCatVP> And KEEP them available. <Ravena> People can choose if they want to take advantage of them. * NyteMuse agrees with Ravena <ColeVonCat> Making the classes easily available and highly recommended goes a long way. <Sylvere> I know we're not supposed to skip topics, but this sort of thing might make for a good YouTube or roundtable. <Merticus> I think a good start would be to make sure these resources and educations guides (or links to the sites that host them) are on ALL of our web sites, pages, and forums. This is the quickest (and less time consuming) thing we can start with and then build as we see fit personally with classes, educational videos, and other projects. <Merticus> As time is most certainly a factor with many of us. <EricBloodstorm> Aye * NyteMuse nods * Sylvere nods * ColeVonCat agrees <Sylvere> I've got Belfazaar's Donor's Bill of Rights on my Meetup group and it's going on the RVCA site too. <NyteMuse> The Kherete material has added a fair bit on donors in the first book, some of which will end up as standalone articles on the site or forums. <EricBloodstorm> Well any good information is appreciated. I try to make sure it’s required reading for membership in our community. <Merticus> The Donor Bill of Rights and/or a common sense guide to how to treat donors should be included on our sites as well IMHO. Even if we don't like the Black Veil or question the "legal" strength of contract with the DBOR we can at the very minimum type up a list of common sense suggestions individually and place them on our web sites. <NyteMuse> On the other side of the coin... some of the donor material out there is extensive...I came up with a lot of sites and articles when doing my research. It might not be a hugely bad idea to create a more concise "just the facts" article for people of the tl:dr (too long, didn’t read) school. <GypsyHSM> Well, the vamps at my occult shoppe ruined my pagan/new age business years ago. <GypsyHSM> Because they don’t understand our natural energy manipulation abilities can make us excellent Reiki practitioners. <GypsyHSM> They see dark and light - no middle ground, or that we exist without being EVIL. <Sylvere> I'm game to distill the donor info into another FAQ. <Merticus> Anyone have other thoughts on this topic they'd like to share? <EricBloodstorm> In smaller communities couples counseling is also an option. I know I use it here a lot for donor education. <SableTwilight> *nod* And thinking about it I know individuals involved with our local anti-violence programs who might be interested in such material. <Merticus> b. Evaluating & Responding To Offers From The Media - A Three-Part Question: (1) What expectations should we have of the media and what questions should we ask prior to consenting to participate in an article or documentary? (2) How can we determine what media requests originate from legitimate sources and what, if any, <Merticus> reasonable expectation of personal privacy should one have for each type of media (print, radio, and film) should they consent to participate? (3) If and when we decide a media proposal is worthwhile to pursue, how do we best match the requests and needs of the project to the specific members of the community who may be able to assist? <Diaboluslupus> My expectation is that we should be paid - unless we are being interviewed in relation to real news/events. I've felt from dealing with media people that a lot expect the community to just leap at the chance for 15 seconds of fame for free. I usually ask for a reference to past work. <Diaboluslupus> Often the person contacting is also listed in industry databases like IMDB.com. <Diaboluslupus> I think we should created a directory of those who are willing to speak to the media, and break it down by what types of media one is willing to deal with. For example I will not do broadcast interviews, but I would be willing to do interviews for print/web. <Isealdor> I don’t think we can really have any solid, universal expectations of the media. The media is going to do what it wants to do, regardless of what we say. I think we can form expectations for what we're willing to work with or not, though, such as that we get to have a bit of a say in the editing (note not final say--for most media things, that's not a reasonable expectation). <Isealdor> As for questions, I'd say we need to always ask what their focus for the publication is, what sort of editing will be employed, if they're looking for sort of a "freak show" or not, who their intended audience is, and the motivations/goals of the publication (ie: are they trying to capitalize on the Twilight obsession or are they wanting to genuinely do an article about the subculture). <Isealdor> Determining what media requests are legit is actually fairly straightforward--contact the parent organization and ask and use some common sense about where the media request is coming from. If it comes from a name that you can’t connect to anything and from a weird, non-official email, question it. If it clearly comes from a producer, who you can Google and find other things they've done, and it's their official contact lines, there's a good chance it's fine. <Isealdor> Contact someone over them directly and double check, if you're concerned, and if you're too scared to send an email or make a phone call saying you were contacted by someone about an article/show/documentary and wanted to double check that it's legit, you might want to reconsider being in the media. About privacy, I think we can have an expectation for reasonable privacy, such as if we ask not to have a real name published for print or radio things, they should be willing to abide by that or we don’t work with them. <Isealdor> Reasonable is the key word, though--if you're going into the media, I think there has to be an expectation and understanding on our parts that when you deal with any media, a certain portion of your life is going to be exposed to the public. With TV, that expectation of privacy is naturally going to drop a fair bit from print or radio media--the moment you're on TV, culture dictates that people are going to poke into your life. <Isealdor> At that point, I think all we can really ask of the media is that if we say we're not going to talk about a specific topic, it means we're not going to talk about it. <Isealdor> Networking and communication would be the best answer about matching the requests to people in the community. If you're contacted by someone in the media about a project that you're not sure you want/are able to do, talk to others about it, see who they know who would be good for it, etc. <Isealdor> The more we can match media with good sources in the community, the fewer more insane people are likely to get the projects. If we're willing to basically aid the media with getting into contact with community people all over and matching them with someone suited to their show, they're that much more likely to work with us rather than doing their own open media calls. <M_Belanger> On the media, the first thing I want to point out to people is that it never hurts to email someone back and ask for more information. Opening a dialogue with a production company is not a commitment to work with them. Especially where television and radio are concerned, you are in control and can choose to step out of the project at any point in time – right up until you sign a contract. <M_Belanger> I strongly suggest that individuals who are approached by the media, especially television media, respond and ask to hear more about the proposal. The more you talk, either through email or telephone conversations, the better a chance you will have to evaluate the professionalism and intent of that particular group. <M_Belanger> An updated list of community members who are willing to work with the media and are able to present themselves intelligently on a relevant subject should be maintained so we can steer acceptable media proposals toward them -- and away from randomly chosen individuals who may or may not have the community’s best interests in mind when they agree to work with that particular project. <RavenHarte> Expect that the media is going to spin whatever they get into what they want to present and will cut up your responses to fit what they want you to say period. So #1. Ask what their angle is. What is the point in them doing the article, interview etc. <RavenHarte> Ask why NOW, is it because the latest Twilight movie is coming out, or because some kind of crime has happened etc. All of this will pretty much tell you what direction they are going to be going in if they can’t tell you up front. <RavenHarte> Find out the company, and call the general number for the company asking for the specific individual and see what thy say. Ask to speak to that individual's superior even. As to privacy, you basically have none. They will use whatever they can find on you within public domain. You have to know that going in. They cannot use what might put you at risk (you address, phone, employer name) but if most will use whatever they can get away with so people understand you are a real person. <RavenHarte> I think we're doing the best we can with matching people to media requests we determine to be worthwhile through the VVC already. <Shishain> We should expect that the media will distort anything we say to its own advantage in order to get higher ratings. Not having had many dealings with the media, I'm not sure if this is possible, but can you ask to see a piece after editing and before release and have the ability to stop it from going out if they mangle you too badly? <Shishain> Once the media latches on to you, I don't think you get privacy any more. Again, not having dealt with this area, I'm not sure how accurate that is. I suspect we don't have to worry about vampaparrazzi yet, but it's worth being cautious. Communication is the key. <xeurika> At this stage of public awareness, I am more leaning to the position of "there is no such thing as bad publicity. It will take some time to change opinions, and we should expect early efforts to be met with skepticism and incredulity. I think adopting a good media strategy is also important. <Zero> I think we as a community and as individuals deserve to be able to expect that media who approach us should do so in good faith. It's probably too much to ask not to get turned into a media sideshow, but we should expect that when media want to present us to the world that they have a bit of our well-being in mind - they should not insist on real names, should be mindful of personal safety concerns, and should not insist on sensationalism. <Zero> On our part, we should be mindful that when we participate in mass media, we are representing our entire subculture, and think hard about what image we're presenting. We have a list of problems with our portrayal in the media - sensationalized horror aesthetic, objectification as "freaks" and deviants, objectification as romantic figures, accusations of criminality, religious demonization. <Zero> We should ask media representatives what they are trying to say with us as an example, what they are trying to say about us, and what they think we are to begin with, and judge their answers against our past media problems. <Zero> Once you talk to the media, you have NO expectations of personal privacy. Journalistic integrity went out of style with the 20th Century; reporters will lie, cheat, and steal to get what info they want. Some will not make it a personal project to invade your privacy, but some will, and you will likely not know which you are working with until you are surprised to see your name in print. If you can't risk being outed, do not talk to the media. <Zero> Legitimate sources should be judged on a personal basis, since the standards of media are so low these days. A piece in a major metropolitan newspaper might be as inflammatory and biased as something out of the Enquirer. Research the author's past works and try to assess the tone, identify any possible bias, and determine their general level of literacy. <Zero> Foremost, we want to know what the media treatment wants to say about us. We want a competent journalist or producer who is interested in a well-rounded view of the community as a culture and of its members as full human beings. We should be aware of the objectification of our people and culture in the media, and be able to spot portrayals in which objectification figures heavily. <Merticus> (1) You should ask the specific focus on the documentary/article/project, what goals they wish to accomplish or convey, and what background research the production company or individual has done into real vampirism and/or the community. It’s also a good practice to ask who else they have contacted so that you can gauge their level of research on your own rather than simply take their word. <Merticus> What role would you be serving in the project, what rights would you have to viewing a final cut of your segment or draft of written material you contributed (some will and some won’t permit such so you need to attempt to establish a personal dialogue with those you are dealing with in cases where you’re taking a leap of faith), <Merticus> what timeframe and commitments would be required from you, what contracts or legal waivers would need to be signed, if your legal name will have to be included in any final publication, and if you’ll be provided with a final copy of the work in the form of video/newspaper/magazine/recording/etc.? <Merticus> (2) They should be willing to e-mail you from an official account and contact you via phone if requested. Some companies may use a common-host account (Yahoo/GMail/etc.) in the initial canvassing and research stage but if you e-mail them and request to be contacted by the company involved with the project they should oblige. <Merticus> If you have not heard of this individual or company before perform a WhoIs search on their domain, a Google search, make sure their IP address matches the geographic area they claim they are from, and request the names of other articles/productions/projects they’ve been involved with. You should never provide personal information (legal name, address, and photos) to an intermediary agent claiming to act on behalf of a production <Merticus> company, network, etc. unless you have verified they are contracted to that entity. <Merticus> The VVC deals with a high-volume of media inquiries so if in doubt you can also contact a member and have them check the latest listing of projects. As to your personal privacy, <Merticus> if you consent to participating in a visual-related project then consider yourself to have no expectation of privacy unless you’ve worked it out with the production company/network under contract to have your face or voice obscured. <Merticus> Likewise, you should consult with your family, friends, and loved ones prior to consenting to appear on television and be in a solid financial position if there are workplace reprisals. <Merticus> (3) This is the tricky part because in the last year the community has begun splitting more down the center on whether to become more public or more underground. Personally, I feel the answer to this question is both in moderation. We shouldn’t feel the obligation to jump at every media opportunity that comes across our desk and at the same time we <Merticus> shouldn’t unilaterally close the door when legitimate and professionally produced opportunities present. We need to be careful what information we’re willing to present for public consumption while providing others with a basic understanding of vampirism in so far as to establish we’re not a cult, new religious movement, or dangerous subculture cultivating societies’ youth. <Merticus> An increasingly fewer of us are willing to consent to being interviewed and especially on television. While in some ways I view this as a positive, I also recognize that it opens the door for the more spurious and radical in our community to fill the void. <Merticus> Those who represent sane, intelligent, and balanced voices who aren’t in danger of losing their children, occupation, or way of life by going public should be encouraged to make it known they are available to serve in such capacity. <Sylvere> We should *expect* for media to attempt to use us to boost ratings and make money. Such is the nature of the business. We *cannot* expect the media to set aside the need to turn a profit in order to present us in the most positive light possible. What we need to ask is what angle the media outlet wants to use to sell the story -- is it going to be sensational, freak-of-the-week type stuff or is it going to focus on presenting us <Sylvere> as real people with real lives that just happen to include vampirism. Are we going to be expected to dress in “vampire drag” and present something “visually interesting” (i.e. ham it up for the camera) or will we be allowed to present our everyday selves, however mundane we may be, to the audience? <Sylvere> We should be allowed to use a chosen pseudonym to protect our privacy, though most media personnel will ask for a legal name. However, we should ask for and receive a guarantee that it will not be disclosed before revealing it, if using a legal name would pose a significant challenge for us. We should also request and receive a guarantee that our faces will be photographed in such a way as to prevent recognition for print media if recognition <Sylvere> poses a risk. Families, of course, should not be photographed or filmed, or if they are, faces should be blurred out. For television, this should be guaranteed in writing. <Sylvere> As far as determining who is or is not “legitimate” – well, define legitimate. Maury and Tyra are legitimate in that they have television shows that get millions of viewers. But do we really want to appear on tabloid television? Other companies have websites and any legitimate media contact is going to include a telephone number. We can visit the website and/or do a reverse lookup on phone numbers to determine the validity of the contact. Assuming we determine the media is something worthwhile and which has the potential to present us in a <Sylvere> reasonably positive light, we should have a database or contact list of members willing to appear. The bio for each person should include location, age, whether the person prefers sang or psi, whether or not the person is able to travel and how far, what types of media the person is willing to do, and any particular areas of expertise -- for example, Michelle and Corvis are prolific writers, Merticus has experience speaking to academic groups, <Sylvere> I have appeared as an expert panelist at the ACJS Conference, and so on. We can then refer the media personnel to quality people in the area and age range desired for the piece. After that, it’s up to the individuals to decide whether or not they’re interested in doing that particular bit of media. <Zilchy> (1) It's definitely important to know who it is we're dealing with and to see examples of their previous work. Additionally we should make it clear that we won't just sit by and allow ourselves to be misquoted and taken out of context. Perhaps a contingency plan that resembles what some authors do when publishers edit their works to death? Also a requirement to air relevant information for those who want to know more? <Zilchy> (2) I think it's important for publishers to recognize that some people may not want to be named or pictured. This is sort of a touchy area because it's difficult for a television program to be engaging without actually picturing someone talking (unless it's a voiceover with things happening on screen, which could be problematic if they choose to show something that's different than what's being said since images tend to burn into thoughts more. <Zilchy> (3) I've already had my fanbase suggest that a documentary be done by us for us or that a Suze Orman style Q&A show be established. Perhaps this could work out if one or a few of us with significant followings were to head up the effort. It's critical that the needs of the networks be identified as well or a project such as this will never get off the ground. Ideally we'd have our own network... <Merticus> Sylvere: As far as travel; generally most production companies arrange such on their dime or ideally come to you (if in a one-on-one interview setting). <GypsyHSM> Self-publishing like I do allows us to keep complete control over the edits. <GypsyHSM> I know it doesn't get you money and marketing, but no one twists your words. <Ravena> Editors aren't evil. <ColeVonCat> I really do like the idea of doing our own documentary. <GypsyHSM> And yes, not a soul talks to me about our studio with audio for visual capacity. We've done DVDs. <ColeVonCat> Gypsy, do you have a media studio? <GypsyHSM> Yes <GypsyHSM> Recording studio - main room, vocal and drum booth – isolation. <GypsyHSM> Audio for video. <GypsyHSM> If may could get Dave to do the filming and the editing on the House Kheperu Open House weekend..... <EricBloodstorm> Well the media has pretty much lied to me and bent me over in each and every experience outside the vampire community, so I personally have not trust for them in regards to appearing as a vampire so they can make ratings. <ColeVonCat> I don't think anyone should be doing it for the money... * Gabrielx nods to Eric – I’ve been bent over as well, it's why I just chose that for our group Anshar would represent us in media style events etc. <Ravena> Yes, Anshar is our postervampy. <SableTwilight> The only problem with self-publishing is that it does not establish legitimacy. <Ravena> True Sable. <ColeVonCat> Oh right, because MTV will gives us legitimacy? <Ravena> Anyone can self-publish. <Sylvere> Self-publishing is B.A.D. if you want to be taken seriously in the publishing industry. <SableTwilight> We need third party publications which can be further sourced and quoted. <Ravena> Quality and correctness is optional. <Corvis> May I interject here? <Corvis> As an author, and publisher seeking media attention, I agree with Eric and Sable. I have been self publishing and it ONLY gives you legitimacy on the grounds of sales to your fans... <Corvis> Sylvere - but it does give you credibility in having established a voice... <Corvis> And it is a huge responsibility, I feel, in representing this group the best way possible IF I am picked to ever speak out for us. <Sylvere> Corvis: Not that much. <Sylvere> Some publishing houses won't deal with anyone who has self-published. <Ravena> Also true Sylvere. <SableTwilight> Now the key is to develop relationships with media. <SableTwilight> Don’t wait for them to come to you. You have to research contacts, who is doing what. <SableTwilight> And develop media/press releases. <Merticus> The success of some projects is dependent on who's involved and who's interviewing to a large degree... granted they may cut and splice as they wish but increasing the quality of the material they have to do that with should be our focus. If they are given poor representatives of this community don't expect a great result... given good or decent reps expect a fair or moderate result. Increase the odds in our favor. <NyteMuse> Hm. I won't argue that the inquiries from “bad” media sources have definitely gone up, but haven't the inquiries from semi-decent ones gone up as well too? Yes, MTV on the surface does seem like a bad idea, but from what I saw in some of the conversations the casting person had with others, they were NOT equivalent with Tyra, Jerry, or Maury. <NyteMuse> Unless she was lying through her teeth in order to get a sell. <Merticus> I tend to give credibility to those who allow transparency with their actions, casting, and storyboarding. <Sylvere> I thought my interview was good. <Corvis> Agreed. Which is why I stepped up to help. I turned away from Tyra. <GypsyHSM> I was turned away from Jerry - I'm too normal <Gabrielx> Gypsy: They didn't turn you away cause you wouldn't punch someone and jump them for their blood? <GypsyHSM> Shit yeah Gabriel - you are really good!! <Sylvere> If I'd been willing to flog someone, I could have gone on WE TV and then Tyra. *eyeroll* <SphynxCatVP> I've actually told a couple "shock jocks" in the past "Sorry, I'm not freaky enough for your fanbase, good luck" <Corvis> Some of us are lucky and need not worry about family or jobs, but what of the back lash of those who do? <EricBloodstorm> Aye! <Ravena> Well, we all choose our level of privacy. <Merticus> Those who do have those worries should not be actively involved with the public media (ie: don't appear on television). <GypsyHSM> This is true. <Ravena> If you worry about losing your job and how it might affect your family, don't do media or be public about being a vamp. <Sylvere> How is anyone going to know if one is a vampire unless one decides to reveal that info? <Corvis> I am safe - it helps my writing and my store, but by NO MEANS do I take the cause lightly... <Corvis> It is all about honor and integrity for my friends, and you, my extended family. <Ravena> With my writing everyone thinks I'm a vamp.. <GypsyHSM> Most of my family died in the last 2 years - so, I have less to lose but also I already own the occult shoppe and wrote the much hated Christian Wicca book. <GypsyHSM> So what the hell, I'm a vampire too. <Sylvere> No one appearing in media should need to worry about Joe Schmoe Vampire getting outed unless we mention Joe's name. <Corvis> People can be exposed though, by accident even. <Sylvere> Corvis: People can also get hit by buses. <Merticus> One of the problems is some of us bitch, whine, and moan every time someone "less than credible" from our community appears on a show (regardless of the caliber of the show) but consistently don't put forth a viable candidate pool for the networks to cast from. (granted some are rejected but this is not always the case). <EricBloodstorm> I think we have offered some very viable candidates <Corvis> Anshar is very good. Nice looking and professional. <Sylvere> I'm a lot more willing to appear in media than I used to be, but I live in BF Missouri. No one wants to talk to me. <ColeVonCat> I have a question. <ColeVonCat> What if you think the media source is legitimate, but you know they are also going to be interviewing people who are crazy? <Ravena> Well, I suppose you'll look sane in comparison. <SphynxCatVP> Part of the problem is many of the reliable and sane members of the community have other things preventing them from being in the spotlight - family they don't want exposed, jobs they want to keep, etc. <SphynxCatVP> And it *seems* a lot of the, ah, less than sensible members don't have such concerns. <Ravena> I'm reasonably sane, but I have no desire to be in the public eye. <Merticus> Yes, and those of us who are sensible with concerns etc. are naturally excluded from the equation. <Merticus> There’s still a quandary and a vacuum that's created by not knowing "who can consent to appearing" etc. <Corvis> I'm very concerned. <Sylvere> Hey, when you're a f’ing psycho, you don't worry about repercussions of your words or actions. <ColeVonCat> I would go public if the show had a level-headed approach. <SphynxCatVP> I was trying to be polite, but yes, that's one way to put it. <Sylvere> That's why we get whack jobs in media more often than level-headed folks. <Corvis> Why is it only the demented get picked? <Ravena> It sells more. <ColeVonCat> I live in San Francisco... I am not going to lose my job for anything I would say. <EricBloodstorm> Well lets face it, whack jobs are also more entertaining because they are nuts. <EricBloodstorm> And they confirm peoples opinion that we collectively are all nuts. <SphynxCatVP> The masses love a show? <Corvis> But by no means should we give up. <ColeVonCat> Right, most of us are interested in dispelling those fantasies. <Sylvere> People *want* us to be freaks. They need us to live up to their fantasies, whatever those are. <SableTwilight> Not always Sylvere. Sometimes they want is to be human as well. Sort of look at the shift in transsexual awareness has gone over the past 20 years. <Ravena> They want to believe that someone else out there is more messed up than they are. <Sylvere> It scares them when we prove to be more sane. <Sylvere> Sable: That took a lot of work from the TS community though. <SableTwilight> Yes it did and still does. <Sylvere> I don't see us doing that kind of work. <Corvis> We 'dark' people are more balanced than other people! <Merticus> Not every media request desires the "freak element" - it's an assumption we've formed from past experiences, etc. The interest in basic subcultural explorations is growing... the psychology of who we are rather than just kids who hang out at Goth clubs and host blood rituals. Some... not all mind you. <EricBloodstorm> Well the media thrives on ratings, so some boring Mr. Rogers type librarian is not going to be an interesting vampire interview for them, much less hold viewers. * Ravena retrieves Gabe's Mr. Rogers cardigan from the dry cleaners. <SphynxCatVP> "There, but for the grace of the $diety, go I...." <Corvis> The power of the black suit... <Corvis> Dark, but respectable. It's a transformation I have undergone on purpose. <NyteMuse> Ok, but then the question becomes, how can we move from the dark uber-spooky appealing archetype to grab interest in a less-spooky fashion? <Ravena> I'm fine with being dark and scary. <Ravena> Less people want to talk to me then. <Zilchy> Suitpower? :-D <Corvis> Yes <Corvis> Be dark, but classy, respectable with an edge of fear. <Merticus> Suit power went a long way in your case Zilchy based on conversations I've had with a couple media representatives lately. <SphynxCatVP> Oh that's good to know :) <Zilchy> Really now? It's working. :-) <EricBloodstorm> Aye that 5 button suit looks good on ya man <Ravena> Yep, that's me, dark but classy with a touch of... if you step closer, I might decapitate you. <Ravena> It works well :) <SableTwilight> It requires folks to be out there, open, pointing out how we're just everyday folk. <NyteMuse> Seems from this side of things like maybe we need to do less in the way of instant rejection, even from bad sources. IMO. Not to say we should accept everything that comes along, but at least make an effort to explain the truth and see who's still interested. Maybe the tides will turn... <NyteMuse> I know we do that a fair bit, like with the MTV stuff, but I also suspect if an inquiry came in for a follow-up from Tyra, or from some other tabloid show, most of us would ignore it and not bother. <Ravena> I'm leaning more towards acceptance from the general public is like a transparent dangling carrot. <Corvis> Exactly. I want to be published through others than just my company for credibility. <SphynxCatVP> It'll take time. <SableTwilight> Personally I could care less about acceptance from existing general public, but more about transforming general public. <NyteMuse> Sphynx: Of course, but if we manage to change the minds of one network or producer, is it a waste? <Corvis> Nyte: No it is not, due to the huge ripple effect. <Sylvere> From now on, I'm going to do whatever media will have me. <SphynxCatVP> Never a waste :) <SphynxCatVP> I just don’t expect people's opinions to change overnight. <NyteMuse> Nor will they change if nothing is done or changes aren't made. <Sylvere> I trust my ability not to say or do something stupid a lot more than I trust anyone else's. <GypsyHSM> It depends on if its the smallest indie network that airs once. <Ravena> I don't think change is possible with how things are currently. <Ravena> With everyone bitching about the other person/group. <Ravena> It's just fodder for that dramatica site. <NyteMuse> That is sort of true, Ravena, I'll agree. <Corvis> Effort must be made, if not us, then who? <SphynxCatVP> I've had a few conversations with producers in the past, given them food for thought. <SphynxCatVP> Some of that's been distilled into site articles, of course. <ColeVonCat> I think that recently, a lot of "Freaky" vampire stuff has been done. <ColeVonCat> Which means any other media groups looking to jump on the Twilight-inspired money wagon and do a vamp-themed show, need a way to set themselves apart. <ColeVonCat> Possibly, presenting vampires as normal humans would be that "unusual twist". <Merticus> The community will evolve one way or the other - with or without us... I'd rather have some input personally in where things head. <NyteMuse> It'd be nice to get off the niggling intracommunity issues, since those serve no one aside from the drama-llamas. <Corvis> Merticus, I agree with that! <Sylvere> Merticus: The more we appear in media, the more likely we are to be requested for media. <Sylvere> If we're getting requests, we can have more influence on media. <Merticus> The demand for "sociology" and "English" papers on vampires has skyrocketed lately... having to write FAQ's to send to college students. <Corvis> The public and part of the community grasp only what is sensational. <Merticus> Right now we're a "commodity"... one who is in the position to make some demands of the media and shape things the direction we'd like them to head to some degree. I'd rather us start realizing that rather than play the victim. They need us more than we need them to sell commercial spots and keep active interest in their programming. We should respond in kind with educational yet innovative ways for them to accomplish such using us as the subject matter. <Sylvere> Merticus: I disagree. <Sylvere> Our position isn't solid enough to make a lot of demands. <Ravena> I think the crazy vamps are in more of a bargaining position than sane ones. <SableTwilight> But we can still make contacts with the media. <Sylvere> There are plenty of psychos who are willing to make a spectacle of themselves. The media don't need us. <Merticus> My position for involvement with almost everything I do is negotiated under terms... they are met or I rescind my assistance. <Corvis> But unified, via the VVC we are powerful. <Corvis> They DO need us. <EricBloodstorm> Aye <Sylvere> Merticus: What happens then? Who do they get if you refuse? That's a concern we need to consider. <Sylvere> Everyone saw who WE TV got after I said no. <Merticus> Yes, and they have to deal with those crazies. Many in casting and upper management would rather deal with level-headed individuals than those who are unstable. Yes, we get people who end up setting their son on fire. And if that is their intent/format we don't belong on their show in the first place. <Merticus> It's an odds game. <Sylvere> I just keep kicking myself over that. <Merticus> Yes, I wish it had been you on there. I think we all do. <Sylvere> I could have dressed up and played to the camera. But I didn't. <Corvis> But can we do nothing in advance? We have people here involved in media, do we not? <Corvis> Thoughts, people? <Sylvere> Corvis: My answer to that will come under D on tonight’s agenda. <EricBloodstorm> Well you could have at least been carried out in a coffin. <ColeVonCat> I think if the show has potential, the sane ones should represent if at all possible. <ColeVonCat> If the show is just for shock value, stay away... it won't matter what you say. <ColeVonCat> That is to say, I really wish more level-headed individuals in this community WERE willing to go in front of a camera. <Ravena> I'm level headed, but so not doing any media. <Ravena> Aside from the writing I already do. <GypsyHSM> But the choice is not ours and editing is a bitch. <SphynxCatVP> Most of you have said what I wanted to say already, heh :) <SableTwilight> I would love to say that I would work on coming up with a PR strategic plan... but this past semester about kicked my tail <SphynxCatVP> Michelle made a point somewhere about training for public speaking - for anyone who goes in front of a camera, this should be, well, mandatory :) <SphynxCatVP> Just to be able to tone down things like nervous body twitches/body language/etc. <SableTwilight> Indeed <Corvis> Sphynx, Yes, I talked a lot about that to her and Don Henrie, back last year. <Corvis> Public speaking classes helped me as an author at colleges, online radio... highly recommend it for everyone. <Ravena> I even took public speaking courses <ColeVonCat> I have taken public speaking classes... may be somewhat relevant to television, don't know. * Sylvere has over 20 years of public speaking & acting experience. <ColeVonCat> See, see? That's a problem we have. <Merticus> My suggestion, if you know of individuals who are able to appear on camera who you feel are competent to do so and would not risk personal loss by doing so notify others via our forum and others who deal with the media. We have to start somewhere... <SableTwilight> So who do we have that's willing to go in front of a camera? <GypsyHSM> Who will stick with the plan Sable? We're vamps not really fitting the norm - not working and playing well with others. <SableTwilight> *laughs* it's purely optional Gypsy. Basically a plan for the VVC itself, as an organization. Members of the VVC would participate as they wanted. <GypsyHSM> I'm with you Sable <Ravena> Anshar will go on camera. He’s pretty too. <ColeVonCat> Hell I'll go in front of a camera. <Zilchy> I go on camera on a semi-routine basis... <NyteMuse> It's possible this may be a stupid idea and shooting ourselves in the foot here, but...what about posting some of these ideas and lessons openly, in the RSS feed or on the site if nowhere else? Considerations, negotiations, etc... case studies. <NyteMuse> Just in case there are some folks in the VC who might not turn out to be batshit crazy and would be able to go on camera... <Merticus> Personally I keep a list of individuals who I feel are capable of presenting themselves well on camera and/or knowledgeable of the material. Sometimes I contact them asking if they want to participate in certain media related projects. I don't think it would hurt for the rest of us to do the same or pool resources when necessary. <ColeVonCat> Does the VVC have a "people who will go on camera" list yet? <ColeVonCat> If not, that's an obvious step. <EricBloodstorm> Media pool. <Sylvere> That might be best discussed under "goals and agenda" <NyteMuse> Perhaps folk like that should be encouraged, tutored, guided... <Corvis> It is an innate quality though...some are just more comfortable, and that ease shows. <SableTwilight> I agree NyteMuse <SphynxCatVP> We could use tutorials for that, maybe articles written by people who've been ON camera, tips and such for people considering being on camera in the future <Corvis> Not everyone can pull it off well. <SableTwilight> Well some people have a desire and presence to be in front of a camera. They just might need to be taught how to message. <Ravena> 1. Dress up in your most Goth outfit ever, frills are mandatory. <Corvis> There goes my suit theory. <NyteMuse> Yeah, and what things never to talk about in a media interview, as well as how to dance around questions to give a safer answer, if not a full/complete one. <Zilchy> Corvis - suit theory still applies. <ColeVonCat> 2. Bring a dark red blood-colored beverage in a clear glass. Sip it with a straw between sentences. <Ravena> They just have to learn how to answer a personal question, without really answering it. <EricBloodstorm> Yes <Ravena> Talk like a lawyer. <NyteMuse> It's not always personal questions...sometimes it's about where to put the emphasis in an answer. <Sylvere> Lawyer hell, talk like a politician. Or a gamer. :-P <NyteMuse> Damn, still need to look up NLP (neuro-linguistic programming) stuff... <SphynxCatVP> NyteMuse, very true! :) <Ravena> A lot of politicians were lawyers before. <Merticus> Anyone else wish to chime in on question B? <Merticus> Are we ready to move on to question C? <Merticus> c. Improving The Quality & Availability Of The Information Presented On Real Vampirism: How can we improve upon the existing information on our web sites, groups, and forums while at the same time increasingly our visibility to the newly awakened and seasoned veterans alike who are actively searching for information on real vampirism? <Merticus> Let’s discuss for a moment the benefits of ensuring we host the most current and responsible information pertaining to vampirism, feeding practices, and donor care, coupled with search engine optimization (SEO), streamlined web site design, and cross-directory linking to other web sites. <Diaboluslupus> I think we should consider maintaining a directory of Junk Vampire sites. Sites that mix real and RPG vampirism. Sites that encourage illegal behavior or sites that provide dangerous info - such as claiming that vampiric people are more resistance to intoxication or toxic substances. I just saw one site that claims you can test if you are vamp or not by taking an overdose of iron supplements. <Isealdor> The reason most of the community sites don’t get the levels of traffic, don’t get the search engine results, etc that they should (given age, membership numbers, amount of info, etc) is poor site design and background coding and/or constant changing of it. I think educating everyone who runs/owns sites we would like to see more visible on SEO and site design, and stressing the importance of site stability, would go a very long way in improving search results. <Isealdor> What a lot of people don’t particularly realize is that just because a site looks good visually to the end user, that doesn’t mean it will do well in search engines--if the coding behind the site isn’t clean, there aren’t proper meta tags, containers, site maps, etc, the searches wont work well. And if a site is constantly redesigned, the links constantly changed, etc, it also won’t do well on search engines because they're looking for stability of the links and pages. <Isealdor> For example, if a search engine crawler goes through and crawls a site, then goes back through a week later and all of the content and urls are different, it will return that the site has a lot of dead links and pages. Over time and if that's repeated, it will knock the site's ratings in search results, plus makes it difficult for people to find the info they were searching for. <Isealdor> Also, having things like banner exchanges and well design link pages to other sites and communities in the OVC with information would help increase traffic throughout the community, and help spread the resources each community or site has. <Isealdor> While I know it's not the policy of most sites to refer people to other sites, if someone has a question that is perfectly addressed by an article on another site, passing them on to that site and information is more likely to benefit the education of the community as the whole. <Isealdor> None of this can be really talked about without addressing why it's important...sure, we're findable as it is, the information is there for the people who search, etc. But the problem is that there are other people who will put their own information, which may not be good information, out there and who will use SEO techniques to boost their search ranks and traffic, and then we're having to try that much harder to counteract the information they spread. <M_Belanger> Quite some time ago, the idea of peer review for vampire sites and literature was brought up on the Dark Nations forum. This is a worthy idea, and it’s something that the community as a whole should pursue further. This requires that we as a community take an interest in more than just our own sites – and that we do so in an informed and unbiased manner, seeking to promote information, authors, and resources not for specific personal agendas but because these things have intrinsic value to the community as a whole. <M_Belanger> I believe that we should also be more vigilant in combing the resources, such as online encyclopedias, that claim to have reputable articles on real vampires and their practices. Many of these are user-edited, allowing anyone to sign up and submit content. When none of the reputable and informed individuals in the community take an interest in submitting, or at least editing, this content, there is no guarantee that the user-driven content <M_Belanger> will be intelligent, well-written, or well-informed – not to mention unbiased. By ignoring or failing to challenge user-submitted information that clearly has an agenda to twist information or to willfully misinform people of our community, we become complicit in that agenda. Apathy is probably our greatest foe in the arena of Internet information maintenance. <RavenHarte> Make sure your links to valued info are clear on every website. Make sure your links are valid. Don’t list anything you think is sub par, even if 1 pg on a website is good if the rest is crap, its crap. <xeurika> This is one of the primary needs and opportunities for The Community in my opinion. While I think the goal should be a central, peer reviewed nexus of information, in the present there is much that can be done from encouraging those who have well regarded sites to cross-link to other sites to teaching search engine optimization and other techniques to insure that the best possible information shows up first on search engines. <Zero> First, decide what kind of information and which topics need to be at the forefront of an information campaign. I think the thinking that we're doing on community safety and not drinking the kool-aid should factor in to a list of stuff we want people to know. But in general, what this will do is set the ethos for the community, and signals the character of community interactions, both to veterans, newcomers, and outsiders. <Zero> This, far more than spotty media appearances, will be the public face of the community if implemented. The implementation is secondary to the discussion and evaluation of what information is universal enough that we can all push it with the same voice, and what is necessary enough to highlight in that way. <Merticus> The Atlanta Vampire Alliance and the Vampirism & Energy Work Research Study web sites will be undergoing updates this summer and will feature additional content to better answer questions asked of us. We’re already working on an extensive FAQ and better linking to existing sites through our Community Directory page. <Merticus> We’ll also be implementing a Flash-based calendar and other features that can be updated automatically. These site improvements will include a changing in many of our meta-tags and we’ll allow full robot crawls of our sites and directory structure. <Merticus> I think it’s important that we all make an effort to cross-link to each other and the VVC Resource Links section is a good start <Merticus> (http://www.veritasvosliberabit.com/resourcelinks.html). If we’re willing to feed each other traffic based on our areas of expertise we can better manage the quality of information individuals performing web searches they come across. <Zilchy> Perhaps for cross linking we could have a master link list that could be used as a PHP include or something similar? I remember webrings and their popularity in the early days but I rarely see them anymore, perhaps the VVC could become a webring of sorts? <Zilchy> I'm not the best with SEO (my stuff's been rejected for AdSense on the basis of being too difficult for the spiders to navigate) so I think some if not all of us could benefit from a tutorial on the subject. <Sylvere> All of the information on the RVCA site and all of the links are either written by me using quality sources such as the CDC or Mayo Clinic for health information, or are personally vetted by me after extensive research. This is the reason the RVCA site isn’t as massive as, say Sanguinarius.org. I want to make sure all of the information is high quality. I don’t want to toss up an article just because someone wrote something about vampires. <Sylvere> Not that Sanguinarius or anyone else here isn’t posting quality stuff. I just haven’t had time to do as much work on the RVCA site as I’d like. That will change in the next few months. I don’t know enough about SEO to comment productively on that aspect. I’m definitely interested in suggestions. <SphynxCatVP> I might be closest to having SEO experience, keeping my site "lean and mean" so to speak. <NyteMuse> The Kherete and Rosa sites will also be getting at least content editing, if not layout tweaks, this summer...when I have a life again. <NyteMuse> Pretty sure mine aren't... that was something I was going to look into. <Ravena> I don't know if my site is SEO or not. <ColeVonCat> Sorry, explain SEO? I missed it. <NyteMuse> Search Engine Optimization <ColeVonCat> Ok, thanks. <Ravena> I think Sanguinarius thinks the articles she posts are good information or viewpoints. <Ravena> She doesn't just post anything. <Sylvere> Ravena: I know Sanguinarius used to post a wide variety of articles in order to try to represent *all* sides of an issue. <Sylvere> I don't have room for that and I'm not going to put up articles I think are crap in the interests of being "balanced." <Ravena> Yeah, that was her aim Sylvere. <Ravena> I know that. * NyteMuse agrees with Sylvere <GypsyHSM> Well, Sanguinarius has a wonderful site but even some of her articles are conflicting with others on the same site. <GypsyHSM> So it's not going to be easy. Sangs and Hybrids and Psi's view blood feeding in various ways - all with a grain of credibility and reasoning. <Ravena> She wants to have all views represented, not just her own or a certain group of persons. <Ravena> On my site I try to post only the sane stuff. <Ravena> Most of the content currently on there was written by me. <Ravena> I link to a few other sites. <SphynxCatVP> Which is a lovely goal, but yes, there are some inherent conflicts because of that. <Corvis> I know the feeling. Sometimes it is needed to state your own stance. <NyteMuse> Well, because Sanguinarius does it doesn't mean everyone has to. <Sylvere> It's a time-consuming process. <NyteMuse> I mean, you can post your opinions on your own House/site and then link to Sanguinarius for the more complete view? <Sylvere> Sanguinarius has a great site and I definitely respect her efforts. It's just not the direction I want to go with the RVCA site. <GypsyHSM> No - I wasn't Sanguinarius-bashing, I'm just saying what do we do write them a VVC parking ticket? <Merticus> What steps is everyone taking... personally? <Sylvere> I'm researching the validity of a lot of articles based on science. Others are researched based on known and accepted spiritual practices. <SphynxCatVP> I'm getting into more of the medical end of things, and will be updating some of my articles based on what I've been learning lately. <Merticus> Have we all cross-linked to one another, linked to the VVC page on our web sites, created a circle if you will of information? <ColeVonCat> Sure but I don't actually have a vamp website. <NyteMuse> Sable and I have been working with our other admin to put together some fairly open distribution guides to various topics and will continue to do so. <Ravena> No one is linked to me I don't think. <Merticus> Ravena you're on my internal list: http://www.darkerthanthou.net <Ravena> Yep, that's it. <Ravena> I linked to Sanguinarius's site, and Sphynx, and Lost Haven's <NyteMuse> Rosa is in the process of linking to sites as we come across them and find them useful. Kherete is a tad more debatable, trying to keep not too clogged or partisan. <GypsyHSM> I'll get into the medical end with you Sphynx as much as I can because I hate this shit <NyteMuse> I know Rosa links to Sanguinarius and Sphynx for sure <NyteMuse> As well as VVC and HK (House Kheperu). <NyteMuse> Kherete links to HK and VVC. <NyteMuse> Possibly Sanguinarius. <Sylvere> I've got links to Sanguinarius, Sphynx, and a number of others. There will be more going up soon. <Corvis> I agree we need to be united as far as info sites are concerned. <Corvis> That is community. <Corvis> Differences on exact opinions aside. <SphynxCatVP> Sanguinarius's site gets like 8x the hits mine does when she and I compared notes. <SableTwilight> House Vespertine currently does not have a web presence, though when we do get one we'll likely do a lot of cross linking, pulling from the vvc resource links <NyteMuse> I know AVA (Atlanta Vampire Alliance) does a nice comprehensive link list, but honestly, sometimes it seems almost overwhelming to me, so I can only imagine how new visitors see it... <NyteMuse> I...honestly couldn't sit all the way through it, I'll admit it. <Merticus> Yes, that list is also in the process of being updated: http://www.atlantavampirealliance.com/communitylinks.html <SableTwilight> Well now that I have this list Merticus, it makes my life easier when sending out resources to folks. <Merticus> What other web and information sharing projects/plans are people pursuing? <Merticus> I think a big problem is few of us actually take the time to crawl each other's sites to know what's out there (resources, articles, etc.) <ColeVonCat> I am going to make a bookmark folder for all of Merticus’ sites. <EricBloodstorm> Well that’s been a problem for me of late, although my time is beginning to free up much more <Corvis> Gotcha. <Ravena> I've visited a LOT of vampire sites over the years. <SphynxCatVP> Probably most of us have if we've been in the community more than a few years. <Sylvere> I'm a Zilchy and DJ subscriber. I will have more time to check out sites after I graduate. <GypsyHSM> I am glad you said that Sylvere so I didn't have to always be the bad vamp. <Corvis> Were talking about a unified front for the public sake no? <Ravena> Not unified per se… <EricBloodstorm> Clamato drinkers unite? <Corvis> As a resource, info wise. <Merticus> We don't all have to be on the same page... though it would be nice to cross-link and share resources. <Corvis> Right <EricBloodstorm> Aye <SphynxCatVP> Cross-linking is a good idea, I think. <Merticus> d. The Vampire Community - 2012 & Beyond: Should we have goals, defined agendas, or other aspirations for the vampire community? If so, what should they be and why? Where do you see the greater community headed in the short-term and long-term? Presently, what do you view as the greatest hindrance to the growth and cohesiveness of both your local community and the greater community? <Isealdor> I think individuals and groups in the community can have defined agendas, goals, etc., but that the community as a whole by its very nature cannot. The community is a subculture and has no real agenda or goal besides the collective ones of those within the community and the general evolution natural to a subculture. <Isealdor> In the short-term, I see the community having to absorb and fall into a new equilibrium based on the most recent vampire craze and finding a balance with the higher publicity the community has had, and either embracing that and the majority being more willing to be out in the open a little more, or rejecting it and going back even more into the shadows. The long-term depends very much which way the majority of the community goes with that. <Isealdor> I would like to see a few things: First, continued and improved networking and communication throughout the community. Second, a greater amount of good material throughout the community and less tolerance of bad material. Third, a spread and more connection between the vampire community and other related communities, such as the paranormal, energy working, etc. And fourth, a move toward more real research about vampirism. <Isealdor> The greatest hindrance I see is the global insistence by a large majority of the community that the rest of the community needs to agree with them and do what they believe should be done. We are a subculture "community" of communities and individuals, and the entire community is never going to agree on what course of actions should be taken. <Isealdor> However, instead of just working with the others who do feel the same way, the popular thing is to try to convince everyone who doesn’t agree that they should, too, which degenerates into disagreements, between individuals, groups, and even communities, and leads to more time, energy, and progress being moved into trying to convince others than toward making any progress. <M_Belanger> Too many individuals involved in the modern vampire community take a passive role in that community’s growth and direction. Many of us participate in forums and message boards online, but only on a personal level, rarely writing content with the consideration that we are creating documents that scholars may source at some point in the near future. <M_Belanger> I think that, as a community, on the whole, we are not self-aware. We do not consider the bigger picture – our cultural context, our existence as an identity group, our place in history. The sheer number of media inquiries and inquiries from scholars argues that our community and its development is noteworthy on some level. We can either remain passive in the process of our community’s development and unfolding, or we can become <M_Belanger> aware of our own relevance and make conscious choices on how we present ourselves. The greatest hindrance to our existence as a community are those who are content to simply glide along in this passive stance, experiencing without reflecting, acting without considering the long-term consequences of those actions – not only for the vampire community, but for our culture as a whole. <RavenHarte> I think concentrating on the here and now is more the point. Get the work done now to make sure the future is on solid ground. You need a better foundation because right now, with all the infighting, the foundation of the community remains tenuous and rocky. <RavenHarte> Be more open-minded and inclusive to each other and other communities. The snippy snotty attitudes and the elitism is a HUGE turnoff to people just coming into the VC. You never know what gems or allies you might find if you could just drop the "this is better, that is better" attitudes and realize the VC's strength is that its already a collective of diversity, and its only going to survive if it remains Diverse. <Shishain> We can't even agree on how to spell whatever we choose to call ourselves. Do you really think we can get the community to agree on a long-term goal? I've got a great cat-herding prod to lend if that's the case. <xeurika> The first step in attaining anything is setting goals. Finding goals that the community can agree on is much more problematic, but I think the process even with the requisite drama and pitfalls is important. All in all, we do know precious little about our shared nature. Learning and refining our knowledge through teaching and debate should be a priority. <xeurika> Locally, the greatest hindrance to our community is that we are as a group so very rare, and finding and connecting on a local level can be quite a challenge. <Zero> What is the list of demands for the Vampire Agenda? Airlift food relief to downtown Los Angeles? 20K and a helicopter? Seriously, the health and well-being of our members has always been one of our primary goals, and the entertainment and aesthetic of our subculture has been the other. <Zero> If we want to start refining these (we have a bit already - club nights, targeted media appearances, dispelling stereotypes, etc), that's entirely possible. If we want to start adding broad categories to community goals - cultural efforts, art, literature, social justice, whatever, we should think about where vampire nature guides us and where vampire community interest lines up with the interests of our greater community. <Zero> I think that in general, the vampire subculture has a lot to say to the superculture, but we'll have to decide what we're going to focus on. <Merticus> While I recognize the importance of a cultural identity and the desire for our particular subculture to flourish, be self-supporting, and encouraging of one another, I’m afraid some of these “ideals” are unrealistic in a macro-only setting. If we want to move things a particular direction, provide a useful service, or spread a message then it needs to begin on a local level and transition past talk and into action. <Merticus> Those who are in areas where there is a semi-active or active community should be doing everything possible to foster growth and support. Get in touch with the people in your area, invite them to dinner/coffee/drinks, establish a meetup and don’t be discouraged if it takes a while for things to get off the ground, and be available to those who have questions or need your help. <Merticus> The greater community needs to do a better job supporting each other and our respective projects rather than retreating to our own comfort zones, trying to undermine people’s efforts, and launching gossip campaigns or attacks against others. We’re not all going to see eye to eye on every issue but there is no reason we can’t be respectful to one another <Merticus> and reduce our egos to the size of quaint single-family mansions rather than sprawling estates or castles. I don’t see public or media interest in the “vampire” abating anytime in the near future and we’re going to have to deal with people who have the wrong ideas about real vampirism as we always have. It’s my hope that in the process of doing so we don’t all burn-out, throw up our hands, and essentially clamp-off the community to our <Merticus> own sphere of personal friends and associates, forsaking any future contacts. If we isolate ourselves too much we’re going to witness an increase in web sites and social networks that interpret “real vampirism” as whatever the person with the loudest voice claims it to be at the moment – in the age of Twilight/New Moon and TrueBlood I’m not sure that outcome will be desirable. <Sylvere> I don’t think we can define agendas too rigidly. Life happens and plans go awry as a result. Additionally, interest in vampires tends to be cyclical. Eventually, the current frenzy will die down and we will be relatively invisible again. However, I’d like to see us embrace the media a little more now and in the future. We’d planned to publish translations of articles and record roundtables for posting on YouTube or as podcasts. This has yet to happen and I’d like to see these projects move forward. <Sylvere> By embracing the media now, we will be in a position to use the media to promote those efforts. The next time the pendulum swings toward us and we become more visible, *we* will be requested to do media more often and, thus, have a greater influence *on* media. Don’t get me wrong; I don’t think we will ever fully control the media beast, but we might be able to coax it in the direction we’d like it to go -- or at least away from <Sylvere> where we *don’t* want it to go. We will also be in a position to supply quality sources of information for newcomers. Right now, a Google search will turn up a few quality websites and dozens of crappy ones. By using the media to make our names familiar, people are more likely to be drawn to our sites over others, thereby increasing the likelihood that they will be introduced to quality information. <Sylvere> The greatest hindrance to cohesiveness within the vampire community, online or offline, is the lack of desire for cohesiveness. We don’t *want* unity or anything that remotely resembles it. We don’t want to follow and many of us don’t want to lead. And those people are the ones who rail against the idea of any sort of leadership, even by people they acknowledge as possessing leadership qualities. <Sylvere> The designation of “leader” has become synonymous in our community with “despot” or “arrogant asshole” with good reason. Everyone wants to be right, to be the Reverend Grand High Holy Head Poobah Uber Lord McDarkity Vampire Princess of the Starship Jackass, and no one wants to hear something that doesn’t gel with his or her own personal views of vampirism because HEAVEN FORFEND! xie might have to reevaluate xir own reality paradigm. We hesitate to call BS on anyone else’s views for similar reasons, even when those views <Sylvere> are ludicrous and completely without foundation (e.g. astral symbionts, vampire virus, etc.) However, the VVC is in a prime spot to lead by example if enough of our members are willing to set aside petty differences to work on a project that will, ultimately, benefit all of us. We have proved that we can do so by creating our FAQ; now it’s time to move on to larger and, potentially, more controversial subjects. <NyteMuse> I don't agree with community goals or agendas. I advocate PERSONAL goals and agendas. <ColeVonCat> I basically agree with what Merticus said. * NyteMuse agrees with Sylvere <Ravena> The greatest hindrance to growth and cohesiveness is all the sniping and bullshit and drama that goes on. Using public or pseudo private forums to bitch about this or that vamp (while avoiding saying anything to their face, or at least to their chat window when they are present). I've seen people tear up a person they have never even met or spoken to in any capacity whatsoever. They are just going by "what they heard", and anyone reasonably perceptive knows… <Ravena> There's still also the "you can't sit at our lunch table" mentality that is present in some groups or areas. Until everyone can play in the same sandbox without getting ridiculous, I don't think any real growth or cohesiveness is possible. Instead, it's just fodder for the folks over at encyclopedia dramatica. I'm not really convinced that acceptance from the general public is a goal we should care about. It's been focused on for several years to no avail. * NyteMuse agrees hugely with Ravena <EricBloodstorm> Agree <Corvis> Are we speaking of national group meetings in person? Like Twilight, Kheperu Open House? <Corvis> No one is demanding to be leader... or emperor. <NyteMuse> The number of people who bash Michelle and have never read one of her books or seen one of her media appearances... astounding. <SphynxCatVP> The internet + semi-anonymity... Ya'll can guess where that goes from there. <SphynxCatVP> Not everyone has the ethics to act online as they would in person, and it's a shame. <EricBloodstorm> Very true Sphynx. <GypsyHSM> Okay more of HSM (House Scarlet Moon) has showed up and he has the opinion that life often imitates art and that we'll continue to have the negative pendulum swing with each movie or TV series. <ColeVonCat> My goal remains getting scientific research going in vampirism, low-chi, chakra damage, or whatever they call it. <ColeVonCat> I don't care so much about social goals... I want scientific progress. <Corvis> Umm, I go by the motto, "don't lie online or people will find you out." It’s such a waste. Childish. Be honest. <Ravena> I'm myself online and offline... which is either reassuring or really scary lol. <NyteMuse> Ravena, what sort of things do you think could be done to minimize the lunch table clique issues? <Ravena> Don't support it in chat rooms and forums you host, for one. <SableTwilight> Cole I'm with you on wanting to see scientific progress or at least peer reviewed material on our community. Though I also would like to see stronger networks built between communities. <GypsyHSM> Well, it's hard for me to go to a REAL EVENT and meet a UNICORN-kin and them tell me that I don't need blood, just white light - so they can't sit at my lunch table, I'll puke on them. <Merticus> On the AVA forum we've created a folder for posts/threads that take a turn for the negative or personal attacks. If you don't allow such generally it begins to catch on that your site won't tolerate certain behaviors (even if you are late to the game). <SphynxCatVP> In some situations, there's often only 1 or 2 people calling the BS flag on things that need to be tossed out, and nobody else backs them up - especially not moderators or admins of the forum or site section. This tends to hinder efforts to, ah, leave the hip waders in the closet... <Ravena> I'll agree with Sphynx on that one. <Ravena> Having been someone who has called BS a number of times lol * NyteMuse agrees SO much with Sphynx <Corvis> BS is BS even when we are dealing with abstract ideas. <Merticus> I've never understood why people are timid at speaking up... <Ravena> I bet people wish I was timid haha <NyteMuse> I left quite a few boards because when I tried to politely call BS on some folk, I got no backup and ended up getting overwhelmed by the OP's sycophants. <SableTwilight> I suspect it might be fear of having their own beliefs challenged, Merticus. <SableTwilight> One person challenging another's perception opens themselves up to their own being scrutinized... and if they are on shaky or uncertain ground to begin with... <NyteMuse> Um... aren't most of us sort of on shaky ground with a lot of these claims? <Merticus> Sable: Yes, likely why 95% of the people on forums are quiet as it is... they aren't comfortable contributing their thoughts or lack an original thought by their estimation. <SableTwilight> Exactly NyteMuse <Ravena> I was so annoyed with it I even wrote an article on it. <Ravena> That stuff inspired my "enabling" article. <GypsyHSM> I admit that I have tried to help the community, unite the locals, host a court and for that - local pagans tried to kill our cats. So I am not so carrying about baby bats and HSM doesn't have an outreach program now. So are we of any help? <Ravena> Pagans killing cats? <Ravena> Uh, isn't that like… *thinks* <SphynxCatVP> Things like that are why I try to limit myself to online presence... I love my cats... <Ravena> No genuine pagan would kill a cat. <GypsyHSM> Yes, calling my occult shoppe saying things - there are as many weekend pagans as wannabe vamps here. <Corvis> But why stay silent when thoughts may be important? <Ravena> They are not confident enough or they aren't smart enough. <SphynxCatVP> Because a lot of people don't want to get their heads bitten off for saying the wrong thing. <NyteMuse> Sometimes I feel like a more diplomatic approach is called for and should be utilized... often, actually. <SableTwilight> People don't like be told they are ignorant or foolish Corvis. <ColeVonCat> I know, people don't want their ideas challenged even on anonymous internet forums... it's weird. <Ravena> It's the net, they can sew their heads back on :) <Corvis> Wrong is staying quiet when they have something vital to say. <SableTwilight> Indeed Corvis, however that still does not always protect one's self esteem. <Corvis> Stoic heart need the writer have. <ColeVonCat> If your self-esteem is so fragile, you don't belong on the internet. <Corvis> It is tough, but stand by what you think. <Corvis> Cole, Agreed. <Ravena> Like good old Eleanor said "no one can make you feel inferior without your consent" <NyteMuse> There's a big difference between "UR doin it wrong" and the Socratic approach of asking clarifying questions until the contradictions become evident. <ColeVonCat> Although I couldn't agree more about the "diplomatic" approach <Sylvere> A lot of people can't debate worth crap either. It's one thing to challenge an *idea* another to criticize a *person*. A lot of the admins on certain sites/groups can't tell the difference. <Sylvere> They just lump it all under "flaming" and ban it. <NyteMuse> Amen to that, Sylvere. <Ravena> I'm with you on that one Sylvere. <Ravena> I think they have issues in the first place if they let someone on the net (or off the net) make them feel inferior. <SableTwilight> Also, realize that different locals have different dynamics in approaching a subject... talking with some one in one location might come off as rude, pushy or tactless in another. <Sylvere> If the admins are unwilling to permit intellectual discourse, even if it means calling BS on someone's idea, then who's going to feel secure enough to challenge ideas? * NyteMuse agrees with Sable <SphynxCatVP> Exactly! <Merticus> Yes, without naming names, that's a major problem on some of the more prominent fledgling forums and it leaves a bitter and negative view of the community in the eyes of many newcomers. <ColeVonCat> That's when you leave the site. <NyteMuse> Add to that the issues with communicating in a text-based medium, without the luxury of inflection and body language... <Ravena> I'm only on 3 forums. <Ravena> VVC, Lost Haven's, and Oubliette. <ColeVonCat> I mean, you have to choose your battles. <ColeVonCat> No one can keep up with ALL the forums out there. <NyteMuse> Except Merticus. <ColeVonCat> Except maybe Merticus. <Merticus> I lost track of how many forums I'm on... takes about 3-4 hours to log into them all though (ie: log in and back out) lol <Ravena> That's why I only have three of them. * ColeVonCat laughs <Sylvere> I'm a *member* of quite a few sites. I actually *read* a scant handful of them with any regularity. <NyteMuse> Yeah, same boat as Sylvere. <ColeVonCat> Me too. <Merticus> There is a distinct lack of "debate" on community issues for fear it'll turn into a flame war or outright censorship by some admins. <Sylvere> That's why the RVCA allows flaming. <Sylvere> If it gets abusive, the mods and I will shut it down, but we permit flames so that it's harder to say we're censoring anything. <ColeVonCat> There's a fine line. You need good mods/admin to have really good debate that allows multiple sides to be expressed without turning into flaming. <NyteMuse> Merticus, there is something to be said for leading by example... <NyteMuse> Not VVC necessarily, but what if some of the major IRC channels and forums purposely started some debates on some issues and showed that it can be done? <NyteMuse> Could encourage some of the quieter folk to feel better about doing it themselves... <NyteMuse> Sort of like seeding the clouds, <Merticus> Well at one point we were going to hold monthly chats open to the community but like so many "good intentions" it was largely forgotten about. <Corvis> People being how they are, and the nature of text, cannot always know (OR take the time) to think through things before getting upset. <NyteMuse> I could sacrifice a night a month for a chat, but I don't think I'm BNV enough to get a draw <GypsyHSM> Dave's on the phone - he says he would do the interviews at HK if someone gives him the interview sheet (list of questions). * Sylvere pouts...will never get to go to House Kheperu Gathering <Merticus> Gypsy: Interviews at the HK Gathering would need to be arranged by Michelle and the House there. <Merticus> Well some of us have extensive e-mails lists we can use to encourage people to come to chats, etc. But honestly I need someone else to take the initiative to schedule and start one because I'm beyond swamped. <Sylvere> Would we do the chats on IRC or Skype or what? <NyteMuse> I'll write myself a note to schedule some. <Sylvere> We know we can't get too many people on Skype w/o feedback. <NyteMuse> But one can only do text chat on that unless one calls in on a cellphone or landline. <NyteMuse> Which doesn't really put it above IRC. <NyteMuse> Seems like text chats are easier to handle high-volume...voice-chats would get noisy fast without an agenda or moderator control. <Ravena> Yahoo has a voice conference; it's worked for LH (Lost Haven) before. <Sylvere> I could do a monthly chat/class/seminar. <Sylvere> It would have to either be on IRC or Yahoo conference. <EricBloodstorm> Are we going to have a problem with too many people for the resource we use? <Corvis> Yahoo is easier for some of us. <Merticus> I'd suggest to start with a IRC chat and avoid the voice conflicts... save that for our "one-day it will happen" roundtables and other projects. <Ravena> Well, we can informally voice chat whenever we wish really. <Ravena> We can arrange it amongst ourselves <Ravena> Goddess knows we could all use the getting to know each other a bit more thing. <Ravena> Nothing official for voice chats, just a small group of people shooting the breeze really. <Sylvere> We could alternate Yahoo and IRC for the chats. <Merticus> Yes, whatever is arranged I'll be happy to mail out to my groups/forum lists. * NyteMuse agrees with Merticus <SphynxCatVP> It's easier to deal with lots of people on IRC than lots of people by voice. <Sylvere> And with IRC, we don't have to add people to a contact list before they can be invited to the chat. <Merticus> Yes, IRC mass-community discussions are quite easy to manage... other programs generally aren't. If we're talking 50+ people connecting. <SphynxCatVP> Having done work-related voice chats, I can safely say it gets... really REALLY confusing...when you have more than a half-dozen people. <Merticus> e. Other topics you’d like to bring up for discussion? <Ravena> Nothing I can think of at the moment Merticus <Sylvere> I got nothing. <Sylvere> I love the Sunday coffee chats Sanguinarius hosts in SL (Second Life). <Sylvere> As a social thing, it would be fun to have more people from the VVC show up. <SphynxCatVP> Oh definitely! <NyteMuse> Sorry... don't get up that early on the weekend. <Sylvere> We could host a VVC community chat later in the day. I'm sure Sanguinarius wouldn't mind. <Merticus> IV. Business Reminders <Merticus> Refer to the forum for all current discussions. <Merticus> Thank you all for coming! <Merticus> <<<<<<END MEETING LOG>>>>>>
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